Dora Warren

Hello Kerri,

I found the Knocknagashel civil marriage record for Timothy and Mary Warren as well as the birth records for 10 of their children. All these records show that Timothy Warren was either a shoemaker or a bootmaker.

The records also give variations of Mary Warren’s maiden name. In some records her maiden name is Lynes or Lyne, while in other records it is Leane or Lyons, or even Keane. I haven’t done enough research to determine the actual spelling of her maiden name.

If you would like the marriage record for Timothy and Mary, and the birth records for their children, including the birth record for Dora, I can send these to you if you do not already have them, after I hear back from you. It will take some time to put all these records together in a comprehensive reply.

Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan

Hi Dave,

Thank you so very much for taking the time to research that. That was very kind of you.

I do have some records of the Warren family that I have found online, and yes I think that Mary's maiden name was Lyons. I have seen many variations on the spellings of the family names that I am researching. I also noticed that many of them spoke both Irish and English. I have heard that she could still speak Gaelic well years after she came here and that Denis could not speak it as well.

If you could help me find Dora's birth certificate, that would be wonderful. I am looking into purchasing official copies of some documents that I would like to have, but I want to make sure that I have all my information correct before I request them. I don't believe that Dora (my great grandmother) was ever naturalized here, so I don't have as much information about her as I do my great grandfather Denis (I found lots of information in his application for citizenship), and she died much younger, so not many of my relatives remember her well. It would be really nice to put her birth certificate in the book with his. They were married in Dorchester and I don't have the official record, but I do know where to find it, so that will be next.

Thanks again, Dave!

Sincerely,

Kerri

Many thanks for writing back Kerri.

By all means hold off purchasing any certificates right now, as I’ll be sending attachments of Dora’s original birth cert, as well as the birth certs of 9 of her siblings, and the civil marriage record for her parents. I’ll also send other records the Warren family as I find them. This research may take a few days and so I hope you don’t mind waiting. I am hoping to get the information to you by the end of this weekend or early next week.

Once again, thank you for writing.

Dave

P.S. I forgot to mention I also found the 1913 Boston marriage register entry for the the people I believe to be your ancestors, Dennis J. "Kearins," and Dora Warren. I'll also send you this record in the next reply.

Thank you, Dave. I would appreciate that very much, to have the birth records of Dora and her siblings.

I do not have any birth certificates for any of the Warrens. I feel badly now that we have so much of my great grandfather Denis and only her death certificate here. Dora's death certificate spells her mother's maiden name Lyons, but her first name May (which could be a typo). Dora died on May 12, 1941 and she is buried at New Calvary Cemetery in Boston. She was 50 years old when she died, and they had many children who are all gone now, but I see the grandchildren and great nieces and nephews of Denis and Dora at least once a year on the Kerins side (my mother has 28 first cousins on the Kerins side).

Of course I don't mind waiting, any help is great.

Thanks again,

Kerri

Hi Dave,

I forgot to mention that Dora's middle name was Louise, if that helps. Their children, all born in Boston: Mary Isabel (my grandmother a.k.a Izzy or Isabel), John, Dora Louise aka "Aunt Louise, "Uncle George", Timothy aka "Uncle Timmy", Lawrence a.k.a. ("Uncle Laurie), and "Uncle Denis". There is a typo on the application for citizenship about Dora Louise's birth year (it has her older than she was). My grandmother, Mary Isabel, was the oldest. Three sisters of Dora emigrated to the U.S.: Bridget, Julia, and Lizzy. My mother met them when she was young. 

I hope that this helps.

Sincerely,

Kerri

Attached Files

In regards to the name "Warren" generally. I am not sure if this is a coincidence, but I have a copy of the mortgage of my other great grandparents (Sullivan) and the name of the mortgage broker was Joseph Warren of the Co-Operative Bank of Roxbury dated 1923. I have uploaded a picture of the first page.

Attached Files

Hello Kerri,

Many thanks for the follow-up replies and the additional information. You never know what other details from an ancestor’s adopted country will provide, such as middle names, and places of birth when searching family history records. As you will see toward the end of this reply, Boston does figure in with a record that I found, and which could lead to further research and locating additional records back in Ireland.

Speaking of Irish records, attached is the civil registration birth record for your great grandmother Dora Warren, who was born in Knocknagoshel on May 11 1891. Her birth and the other civil registration records in this reply were discovered at the free irishgenealogy.ie website.

As an aside you’ll also see the townland of Knocknagoshel spelled as Knocknagashel, which I believe is how it is spelled today. When Dora, her parents, and siblings lived in the town in the late 19th and early 20th century, Knocknagashel was situated in the Civil Parish of Castleisland. In Irish, the town is spelled, “Cnoc na gCaiseal,” which means “Hill of the stone ringforts.”

The birth record shows that Dora’s father is Timothy Warren of Knocknagashel. Her mother is Mary Warren, formerly “Leane.” The birth record shows that the occupation of Timothy Warren is “Shoemaker.” The person at the birth of Dora, and who reported the birth to the local district registrar, was “Minnie Warren. Present at Birth. Knocknagashel.”

Minnie Warren may have been Timothy’s sister. She probably was the midwife who delivered Nora. The registrar, Michael Ahern, recorded Dora’s birth in the Tralee Registration District on May 18, 1891.

Dora’s birth is Number 60 in the attached birth register.

The 1911 census, which you linked in your message, shows that Dora’s parents had been married for 32 years and in that time had 6 children, with 6 children still living. Being married for 32 years as of 1911 means they would have married circa 1879. Ages, years of marriage, and the number of children a couple had are often not accurate in the 1911Irish census. I looked for Timothy and Mary’s marriage between 1875 and 1880 at irishgenealogy.ie and found it. Timothy Warren and Mary “Lynes” were married in the Roman Catholic Chapel of Knocknagoshal on 6 November 1877. At the time of marriage Timothy and Mary are shown to have been of “full age,” that is, 21 years old or older. Timothy was a bachelor at the time of marriage, while Mary was a spinster. The terms bachelor and spinster just indicate that neither had been married before.

The marriage record further shows that Timothy’s occupation was “Shoe Maker,” and that his residence at the time of marriage was Knocknagoshal. His father was also named Timothy Warren, whose occupation was labourer.

Mary’s occupation at the time of marriage was “Servant.” Her residence at the time of marriage was also Knocknagoshal. Her father was Daniel Lynes, a labourer. The priest who married Timothy and Mary was Thomas Quile. The witnesses to the marriage were John Daly and Thomas O’Connor. The marriage was recorded by the Registrar, Robert Harold, in the Tralee Registration District on 7 November 1877. The marriage record is attached to this reply.

The marriage record indicates that Timothy did not learn the shoemaking trade from his father, whose name was also Timothy. This means that he likely learned trade as an apprentice to a local shoemaker, rather than as his father’s apprentice.

To read a very interesting blog about shoemaking, go to the MyHeritage link at: https://blog.myheritage.com/2015/09/extinct-crafts-shoemaking/

The Catholic Church in Knocknagashel where Timothy and Mary were married is called St. Mary’s. You can see the location of the church on a Google Map of Knocknagashel at: https://is.gd/uk85Xe

For a Google Street View of St. Mary’s Church in Knocknagashel, see: https://is.gd/X3Wmx5

There has been a church or chapel in the same location in Knocknagashel for over 180 years. You can view the location of the “R.C. Chapel” in Knocknagashel on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1888 to 1913 time period at the following GeoHive website link: https://bit.ly/2A2NfQO

An Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1843 time period shows the R.C. Chapel in the same location in Knocknagashel: https://bit.ly/2LT3ov8

While on the subject of the Knocknagashel Catholic Church, I’d like to mention at this point that I uncovered the baptism transcriptions for 7 Warren children, including Dora, baptized there. These baptisms also come from the irishgenealogy.ie website, which in addition to civil records, offers Catholic and Protestant denomination baptisms, marriages, and burials for select counties and parishes in Ireland.

For church records available online at irishgenealogy.ie, see: https://is.gd/hPqbKG

For civil registration birth records available at irishgenealogy.ie see: https://is.gd/eHg5LG

Many of the church records at irishgeneaogy.ie have been digitized, but not so for the baptism records for Knocknagashel. At this time, only transcriptions are available.

I didn’t find the Knocknagashel church marriage record for Timothy Warren and Mary Lyons, though the information in a church marriage record for them will basically match the information in their civil marriage record.

The baptism transcriptions for the Warren children follow. Dora’s first name in her 1891 baptism is “Debora.”

All but one of the baptisms show the mother Mary’s maiden name is Lyons:

Area - KERRY (RC), Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of MARY WARREN of KNOCKNAGOSHAL on 19 October 1878

Name MARY WARREN
Date of Birth 16 October 1878
Address KNOCKNAGOSHAL
Father TIMOTHY WARREN
Mother MARY LYONS

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 THOMAS CONNOR
Sponsor 2 MARY WALSH
Priest REV.T.CARMODY
Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC), Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of PATRICK WARREN of KNOCKNAGOSHIL on 30 March 1889

Name PATRICK WARREN
Date of Birth 29 March 1889
Address KNOCKNAGOSHIL
Father TIMOTHY WARREN
Mother MARY LYONS

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 JAMES KEANE
Sponsor 2 BRIDGET KING
Priest REV.J.NELIGAN
Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC), Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of DEBORA WARREN of KNOCKNAGOSHEL on 7 May 1891

Name DEBORA WARREN
Date of Birth 7 May 1891
Address KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Father TIMOTHY WARREN
Mother MARY LYONS

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 THOMAS WALSH
Sponsor 2 JULIA KEANE
Priest REV.J.NELIGAN
Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC), Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of MARGARET WARREN of KNOCKNAGOSHEL on 29 July 1893

Name MARGARET WARREN
Date of Birth 24 July 1893
Address KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Father TIMOTHY WARREN
Mother MARY LYONS

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 DANIEL O'KEANE
Sponsor 2 MARY WARREN
Priest REV.J.NELIGAN
Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC), Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of ELIZABETH WARREN of KNOCKNAGOSHEL on 11 January 1896

Name ELIZABETH WARREN
Date of Birth 7 January 1895
Address KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Father TIMOTHY WARREN
Mother MARY LYNE

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 DANIEL CARMODY
Sponsor 2 MARY CONNOR
Priest REV.J.HARRINGTON
Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC), Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of THOMAS WAREN of K.GOSHEL on 17 December 1898

Name THOMAS WAREN
Date of Birth 15 December 1898
Address K.GOSHEL
Father TIMOTHY WAREN
Mother MARY LYONS

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 DENIS MC AULIFFE
Sponsor 2 BRIDGET WARREN
Priest REV.J.NELIGAN
Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC), Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL

Name JULIA WARREN
Date of Birth 28 August 1901
Address KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Father TIMOTHY WARREN
Mother MARY LYONS

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 JOHN WARREN
Sponsor 2 HANNA CARMODY
Priest REV.J.NELIGAN
Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

THE WARREN BIRTH RECORDS

Below are the names and years of birth for the 10 Warren children that I found at irishgenealogy.ie. All the births were recorded in the Tralee Registration District. I’ve included Dora in the list to show the full chronology of the births. Also included in the list are the line numbers where the births are found for each child in the birth registers:

Mary Warren, 1878, Number 26 in the birth register
John Warren, 1880, Number 344 in the birth register
Bridget Warren, 1882, the first birth at number 89 in the register
Thomas Warren 1884, number 357 in the birth register
Timothy Warren, 1887, number 110 in the birth register
Patrick Warren, 1889, last entry, number 332 in the birth register
Dora Warren, 1891, number 60 in the birth register
Margaret Warren, 1893, number 297 in the birth register
Eliza Warren, 1896, last entry, number 57 in the birth register
Julia Warren, 1901, number 125 in the birth register
____

Sadly, I also found the civil registration death record for Timothy and Mary’s son Thomas. His birth record shows he was born in Knocknagoshel on December 8, 1884. His death record shows he died in Knocknagoshel on July 15, 1887, at the age of 3 years. The death record also shows he was a “Shoemaker’s son,” and that the cause of death was, “Pneumonia 3 weeks. Certified.” His mother Mary Warren was present at the death and reported the death to the local district registrar. The registrar, Michael Ahern, recorded the death in the Tralee Registration District on August 1, 1887. Thomas’s death record is attached, and is number 485 in the death register.

No matter how long ago they happen, it is still difficult to read about the death of a child like young Thomas.

If you recall, the 1911 census for the Warren family notes they had 6 children altogether with the 6 children still living. It may have been too painful for them to record in the census that they lost a son. Thomas would have been deceased for 24 years as of July 15, 1911.

Your great grandmother Dora would not have known her older brother Thomas, as he was already deceased when she was born in 1891. But it makes you wonder if her parents ever mentioned him when she and her other siblings were growing up in Kncoknagashel.

The year 1887 was also the year when Timothy and Mary's son Timothy was born on March 6. He was born just a few months before Thomas died on July 15 of that year.

CIVIL REGISTRATION IN IRELAND

There will not be civil registration birth records for Timothy Warren and Mary Lyons. Civil registration commenced in Ireland in 1845 when the government recorded civil and Protestant marriages only. Civil registration of births, marriages, and death for all religious denomination began in Ireland in 1864.

Timothy and Mary were married in 1877 and would have been too young to have married if they were born in or after 1864. Before 1864, you have to rely on church parish registers for your Catholic ancestors. I did not find their baptism records at the irishgeneallgy.ie website recorded in Knocknagashel. It may be that their baptisms have not been transcribed and digitized yet.

Copies of original civil registration death records are available at irishgenealogy.ie from 1878 to 1969. I looked for Timothy and Mary Warren’s death records at irishgenealogy.ie.

I found what I believe is Mary’s death record. Let me preface this saying that the 1911 census was enumerated on April 2 of that year. Mary is shown to be 55 years old in the census. The death record shows that Mary Warren died in Knocknagoshel on December 18, 1911. At the time of death she was 54 years old. The death record shows she was a “Labourer’s Wife.” The cause of death was “Catarrhal Pneumonia 14 days. Certified.” The person who was present at the death and who reported the death to the local registrar was Patrick Warren, whose residence was also Knocknagoshel. This Patrick is likely the Timothy and Mary’s son, who is shown to be 22 years old in the 1911 census. The local registrar, Michael Ahern, recorded Mary’s birth in the Tralee Registration District on January 8, 1911. Her death is the first entry in the attached death register at number 461.

I did not find a death record for Timothy Warren in Knocknagashel, in County Kerry, or anywhere else in Ireland. His death may not have been reported to the local registrar. Kerri, do you know if he left Ireland and went to the States with one of his children?

JOHN WARREN MARRIAGE

I uncovered the marriage record at irishgenealogy.ie for one child of Timothy and Mary Warren. This is for their son John. John Warren and Margaret Herlihy were married in the Roman Catholic Chapel of Knocknagoshel on 1 November 1914. At the time of marriage both were of “full age.” John had been a bachelor and Margaret a spinster before marriage. John’s occupation was “Machinist.” He was from Knocknagoshel. His father was Timothy Warren, a “Shoemaker.”

Margaret’s occupation was “Farmer.” Her residence at the time of marriage was Boula. Her father was Patrick Herlihy, a “Farmer.” The priest who married John and Margaret was Father Morgan O’Flaherty. The witnesses to the marriage were Timothy Warren and Rose Herlihy. It is not clear if the witness Timothy Warren was John’s father or brother. The marriage was recorded in the Tralee Registration district on 4 January 1915 by the Deputy Registrar, Patrick O’Sullivan. The marriage is number 109 in the attached marriage register.

John Warren and Margaret Herlihy were married just a few months after the start of World War I in Europe.

John’s birth record shows he was born on September18, 1880, which would have made him 34 years old when he married in November of 1914.

The marriage record shows that Margaret Herlihy had been living in Boula when she married John Warren. A Google Map shows that Boula, by the shortest modern day route, is 1.5 miles west of Knocknagashel: https://is.gd/8H8BZg

For a Google Street View of Boula, go to: https://is.gd/jQFWlg

For another Google Street View of Boula, see: https://is.gd/BWxh5o

THE BOSTON MARRIAGE OF DENNIS J. KEARINS AND DORA WARREN

The City of Boston marriage register shows that Dennis and Dora were married on March 30, 1913. At the time of marriage Dennis was 22 and Dora 21 years old. This was the first marriage for each. Dennis’s address was 17 Dennis Street. His occupation was “Moulder.” His birthplace was Ireland. His parents are John Kearins and Mary Kane.

At the time of marriage Dora was living at 21 Walton Street. Her occupation was, “Domestic.” She too was born in Ireland. Her parents are Timothy Warren and Mary Lyons. Father John M. Farrell of 20 Roseland Street married Dennis and Dora. The marriage is recorded at number 1504 in the attached Boston City marriage register.

A Google Map shows that Dennis Street and Walton Street in Boston are 2.9 miles from each other by the shortest route: https://is.gd/BpmUKt

For a Google Street View of Dennis Street and the Dennis Street Park, see: https://is.gd/JL0sV9

Here’s another Google Street View of Dennis Street: https://is.gd/fpMgis

The following link will take you to a tree-lined Wallton Street in Boston: https://is.gd/zwoJnn

Catholic marriages in Ireland and the United States traditionally took place, and still do take place in the bride’s parish. The address of Father John M. Farrell who married Dennis and Dora was 20 Roseland Street. A Google Map shows that Roseland Street is just ½ mile east of Walton Street: https://is.gd/VJKFHI

An enlarged Google Map of Roseland Street shows that the Saint Mark Dorchester Catholic Church is located at the corner of Roseland Street and Dorchester Avenue: https://is.gd/7ZGh6y

Because this church is on the corner of Roseland Street, it may be the parish church where Dennis and Dora were married in 1913, 107 years ago.

In the next Google Street View you can see Saint Mark’s Church on the corner of Roseland Street and Dorchester Avenue: https://is.gd/xZjzvb

The brick building in the next Google Street View is, or was probably the rectory where Father Farrell had lived. It is still located at 20 Roseland Street: https://is.gd/iv7csC Also see: https://is.gd/1tStlb

Kerri, you may want to consider contacting Saint Mark’s Catholic Church to see if they have the church marriage record for Dennis Kearins and Dora Warren. Dennis and Dora’s children may have been baptized in the church if the family did not move too far away after they married.

Contact information for the Saint Mark Parish website is:

ST. MARK PARISH
ADDRESS:
1725 DORCHESTER AVENUE,
DORCHESTER, MA 02124
TELEPHONE:
(617) 825-2852
FAX: (617) 825-0514
____

For a “Brief History” of Saint Mark’s Catholic Church, go to: https://www.stmark-stambrose.org/history

Do have any information that Dennis and Dora were married in Saint Mark’s?

CONCLUSION

If you’d like I can see what information I can find about Dennis Kearin’s and his family in Ireland. I can start the research after hearing back from you.

This reply incudes 15 attachments of copies of original birth, marriage and death records, 14 of which are from Ireland, and one for the Boston marriage of Dennis Kearins and Dora Warren.

In order, the attachments are:

Dora Warren 1891 birth
Warren and Lyne 1877 marriage
Mary Warren 1878 birth
John Warren 1880 birth
Bridget Warren 1882 birth
Thomas Warren 1884 birth
Timothy Warren 1887 birth
Patrick Warren 1889 birth
Margaret Warren 1893 birth
Elizabeth Warren 1896 birth
Julia Warren 1901 birth
Thomas Warren 1887 death
Mary Warren 1911 death
Warren and Herlihy 1914 marriage
Kearins and Warren 1913 marriage
____

With Best Wishes Kerri,

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thank you so very much for all of these valuable documents and for taking the time to put them into context for me as well. I will be looking at them today. The only siblings of Dora that I had ever heard stories of were her sisters Bridget, Julia, and Lizzy who all emigrated here to the U.S. I don't remember ever hearing about Dora's parents either, just their names on her death certificate, and I am so happy to learn more about the Warren family. Dora passed away in 1941, so there are very few people left in my family who remember her well. 

p.s. Thank you so much for those great links as well. Also,on the 1911 census, Mary is listed as "shop keeper" and Dora as "shop assistant", that is why I wondered if they had a shop.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Knocknagashel/Knocknagashel_Town/278628/

Thanks again Dave! You are amazing!

Sincerely,

Kerri

You're welcome Kerri and many thanks for the kind words. They are very much appreciated.

Mary and Dora may have kept the shop for Timothy, waiting on customers while Timothy was repairing shoes, making it a true family business. Or it's also possible that Mary had her own shop in the same place where Timothy had his. This would also be in the same building where they lived.

If you travel through Ireland you'll see that in some small towns two different types of businesses in the same building owned by the same family. For instance I've seen establishments that had a pub on one side of the buildings, while on the other side of the building was a funeral parlor/undertaking concern.

I hope someday you and your family can travel to Ireland and knocknagashel where your ancestors had lived. I think that would be a thrill for you.

Hopefully things will not be closed down too much longer during this plague.

Once again, many thanks for writing back Kerri.

All the Best,

Dave

Thanks again, Dave. I do plan to visit (hopefully in the not too far future). And yes, I think that it would be a thrill for sure.

Take care,

Kerri

You're welcome Kerri.

I hope you have a fantastic trip when you go to Ireland in the future.

Dave

Attached Files

Thank you for the well wishes, Dave. I am enjoying the street views of the churches: Saint Mary's and Saint Mark's. I have driven by Saint Marks many times on the way to visit family, but I did not remember that that was my great grandparents' church. The shoemaking video was very interesting as well. We have a local museum that sometimes hosts a live shoemaking exhibit, but the one that we had signed up to attend this spring was cancelled.

I am not sure if Dora's father Timothy emigrated to the U.S., but it is possible. Dora died before my mother was born and my grandmother (Denis and Dora's oldest) passed a long time ago now. My grandmother did talk about him sometimes to my mother, but she was never sure of the time or place because she was so young when she heard their stories. I used to hear some of the stories at the annual family picnic that my grandmother and her sister started long before I was born (always held on the same day), but I haven't heard them in a long time. Dora emigrated in 1911 and I don't see her father on the manifest with her name. Her sister Bredget was already here, Julia and Lizzy maybe came a little later (my mother remembers them better). It is very sad to hear of Thomas, thank you, and 1911, Mary died young as well. I would hope that they were all buried together (Mary, Timothy, and Thomas). I will double check on Julia and Lizzy's emigration, but I don't remember seeing Timothy traveling with either of them.

If you feel that you have the time and would like to research my Kerins side, please feel free! I have many documents of my great grandfather Denis (birth, death, naturalization, certificate of citezenship, and his passport, and now a marriage record. I have many U.S. records for Simon, Ulick, and Mary.  I have been trying to find out where his two older sisters Kate and Bredget went to after 1911, and I haven't had any luck with those two at all. I know that my great grandfather Denis, Simon, Ulick, and Mary Kerins emigrated to the U.S. and that Patrick stayed in Ireland, married, had children and was buried in Castleisland (his wife was Nora who died after him and she is there too).

I found an 1886 marriage record that I believe is that of Mary Keane to John Kearin. Kate and Bredget are on the 1911 census putting their births about 1888 and 1890 and I have had no luck with marriage or death records. I would prefer to find Kate and Bredget first before I try to go further back with parents John and Mary Kearin. The only birth record that I have for sure is the one that my grandmother saved of her father Denis. There seem to be two Kerins families in the same parish with Parents names Mary and John. Maybe they were John's cousins? Even a good portion of the children's names are the same. I will attach the link to the 1886 marriage record.  https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10854/5963384.pdf

Here is the 1901 Census for my Kerins family http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kerry/Lackabaun/Mullaghmarky/1428302/

Thanks, Dave. I hope you have had a nice weekend.

Sincerely,

Kerri

Attached Files

HI again, Dave. This could be my Kate Kearins here at record No. 43 Marriage to John Doyle on January 22, 1923. I think that the district says Castlemaine?

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1923/09178/5319743.pdf

Thanks so much.

Sincerely,

Kerri

Hi Kerri,

I don't mind researching your Kerin/Kearin genealogy at all. I'd much rather be doing genealogical research than going out in public looking like a bank robber wearing a mask during the Coronavirus.

Right now I'm assisting a man from the UK who also has Kerry ancestors, but the challenge with this genealogy is that his great grandfather married his great grandmother with both having the last name of Sullivan, and so you can imagine what a challenge this has been, as there were thousands upon thousands of Sullivans living in County Kerry during the 19th century. Sullivans married Sullivans all over the place, and had lots of Sullivan children, who in turn, married into other Sullivan families.

I should be through with this project within a week, maybe a little less or longer. I'll write back when I've started on the Kerin genealogy, and if I have any questions.

Thank you for sending those links, they may be very helpful.

I'm looking forward to starting on the Kerin research as soon as possible.

Thank you again for writing Kerri.

Dave

Sounds great Dave,

Good luck with the Sullivans!

Sincerely,

Kerri

Hi Kerri, Do you have either the 1901 or 1911 census for the other John and Mary Kerins family. If so I want to compare it with the Kerins family in Mullaghmarky? Thank you. Dave

Hi Dave,

I found the census for the other John and Mary Kerins family and will post the link here. To clarify, it is the same civil registration district, so maybe not the same parish, but pretty close (I think), so I have wondered if they could have been  related. http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kerry/Killeentierna/Bawnaglanna/1418836/?fbclid=IwAR36kTXVkraCTNx4sFy1pGjlYhJUBkPNPcK-LR4UU2UvS3MdFefwyBf4mzc . This one kept coming up when I first began searching my Kerins family. I only knew the difference because I knew some of the details of my Kerins family from the documents that I have of my great grandfather (Denis Kerins).

On another note, someone suggested to me that I check with a certain sports league to inquire (they didn't say why), but I will have to go back and look up the details of the league. Thanks so much for all of your help.

Sincerely,

Kerri

Hi Kerri,

Thanks for that. Hopefully I'll get the information I've collected about the Kerin and Keane ancestors to you this weekend.

The sports league in question may be the National Football League (NFL). Zac Kerin is a guard for the Washington Redskins in the NFL. See:
https://americanfootballdatabase.fandom.com/wiki/Zac_Kerin

Or, the league may refer to an Irish rugby player and physiotherapist named Fearghal Kerin. See: https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/staff/fearghal-kerin/ and https://simplifaster.com/articles/author/fearghalkerin/

Kind Regards,

Dave

Okay, thanks Dave!

Attached Files

Hello Kerri,

Thank you for sending the 1901 census of the family of John and Mary Kerin of Bawnaglanna, Killeentierna, County Kerry. I did some research on the family and found that this John Kerin married Mary Keane in the Knocknagoshel Catholic Chapel on February 9, 1893. Their fathers are Denis Kerin and Maurice Keane. John’s residence at the time of marriage was Kilteentierna. I could not make out Mary Keane’s residence because the handwriting isn’t the best. The marriage record is attached.

The above named John Kerin and Mary Keane had only three children as far as I could determine: Julia (1894), Denis (1897), and Catherine (1901), all born in Bawnaglanna.

Bawnaglanna is the town the Kerin family was residing in as recorded in the 1901 census you had sent in one of your more recent communications.

There were only three children because John Kerin, of Bawnaglanna, had died in the Killarney Workhouse on 26 July 1902. At the time of death he was 40 years old, married, and employed as a labourer. The cause of death was, “Mitral Regurgitation of Heart 10 Years. Gastritis 6 months. Certified.”

His death record is number 1 in the attached death register. Number 1 is not the first death in the register, but the 6th death recorded from the top of the page.

This Kerin family then, would not be in your direct line, as far as I can determine, though it is possible they were related somehow to your Kerin and Keane ancestors, perhaps as cousins.

I found through the 1911 census that after her husband John’s death, Mary Keane Kerin had married a fellow named Thomas O’Connor. Mary and Thomas, as well as Mary’s two children, 17 year old Julia Kerin and 10 year old Catherine Kerin are in the household with them in Bawnaglanna. See: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Killeentierna/Ba…

Based on your information and the 1901 and 1911 census records, I found the civil registration birth records for 7 children of your John Kerin and Mary Keane.

Below are the names of the children, their year of birth, the town where they were born, the occupation of their father John, and the number in the register where their birth is recorded. Oddly enough, none of the children had been born in Mullaghmarky, where the family is recorded in the 1901 and 1911 census enumerations.

Catherine Kerin, 1887, Currans, Weaver, Number 440
Bridget Kearin, 1889, Currans, Weaver, Number 184
Denis Kerin, 1891, Currans, Weaver, Number 405
Patrick Kerin, 1893, Curraheen, Weaver, Number 208
Simon Kerin, 1895, Currans, Weaver, Number 392
Ulic Kerin, 1898, Currans, Labourer, Number 345
Mary Kerin, 1904, Curraheen, Labourer, Number 77
____

When you access the birth records you’ll see that the person present at the births for Catherine, Bridget, and Denis, is Bess Kerin. She was likely related to John Kerin and acted as the midwife at the births. In the 1895 birth of Simon, the person present at the birth was Bess Sullivan. This indicates that Bess Kerin had married a fellow named Sullivan.

Bess Kerin/Sullivan, would have also reported the births of the children to the local district registrar. The births were all recorded in the Tralee Registration District.

Between the birth of Simon in 1895 and the birth of Ulic in 1898, it appears the father John Kerin changed occupations from a weaver to a labourer. This may be due to his not being able to make a sound enough living to support his growing family as a weaver. Kerri, had you known that John Kerin was a weaver?

You’ll also see in the list of children above that 5 were born in Currans and 2 in Curraheen. A Google Map shows that Currans is 6.4 miles southwest of Mullaghmarky by the shortest route: https://is.gd/DHm5GQ

Another Google Map shows that Curraheen is 15.8 miles west of Mullaghmarkey: https://is.gd/zputNk

A third Google Map shows you all three towns in relation to one another: https://is.gd/GjSTLt

Again, I’m not sure why the children were not born in Mullaghmarky were the Kerin family had been counted in the 1901 and 1911 census. It could be that they went to either Currans and Curraheen where Bess Kerin/Sullivan had lived so that she could assist with delivering the children.

Bess is short for Elizabeth and so I looked for her marriage record at the irishgenealogy.ie website and found that she and Daniel Sullivan were married in the Catholic Chapel of Castleisland on February 14, 1893. Daniel Sullivan was from Curraheen while Elizabeth was from “Curranes.” These are the two towns where one or the other Kerin children were born. The marriage record for Daniel Sullivan and Elizabeth Kerin is attached. You’ll see in the marriage record that the name “Bess” is crossed through and replaced by Elizabeth.

Kerri, in one of your previous communications you had sent the link for the 1901 census showing the Kerin family residing in Mullaghmarky. In that census John and Mary’s 6 children, including Catherine and Bridget, were in the household with them. Mary was not in the household in the 1901 census because she wasn’t born yet.

I then accessed the 1911 census for the Kerin family and found that Catherine was not in the household, but that 22 year old Bridget was. This census also shows that John and Mary had been married for 24 years and in that time had 7 children, with all 7 children still living. They would be the 7 children noted in the list shown earlier.

You can download the 1911 census for the “Kerins” family at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Lackabawn/Mullag…

You’ll see in this census that 76 year old Simon Keane is in the household. He is recorded as John Kerins’ father-in-law, which means he was Mary’s father.

The 1886 marriage record you sent previously as a link for John and Mary shows that Mary’s father is Simon, and so you know that you have the correct Kerin and Keane marriage record.

The 1886 marriage record further shows that John Kerin was residing in Curraheen and that his father was Denis Kerin. At the time of marriage Mary was residing in Tooreenmore.

I’ve added Tooreenmore to the previous Google Map you saw. This town is just north of Mullaghmarky: https://is.gd/hj7OJX

As mentioned a little earlier I found that 22 year old Bridget was in the household of her parents in the 1911 census, but that Catherine was not. The 1911 census for the Kerin family shows that Bridget was 22. You had indicated that your main interest at this point in your research was finding more information about Catherine and Bridget Kerin.

Sadly, I found that Bridget died 5 ½ months after the 1911 census was taken. Her date of death was 14 September 1911. She died in Curraheen at the age of 22, which was her age in the 1911 census. She is shown to have been a “Labourers daughter.” She died from, “Endocarditis 12 months. Certified.” The person who was present at the death and who reported the death to the local registrar was Bridget’s mother Mary Kerin, of Curraheen. The registrar, John Rice, recorded the death in the Tralee Registration District on 6 October 1911. Bridget’s death is the first one in the attached death register, at Number 391.

To compound the tragedy of Bridget’s death at an early age, 8 months later her mother Mary died. Mary Kerin died in Curaheen on 13 May 1912 at the age of 52. At the time of death she was married and described as a, “Labourer’s wife.” The cause of death was, “Pneumonia 14 days. Certified.” The person who was present at her death and who reported the death to the local registrar was Ulick Kerin of Curaheen. The registrar, John Rice recorded Mary’s death in the Tralee Registration District on 23 July 1912. Mary’s death is Number 448 in the attached death register.

CATHERINE KERIN

Kerri, I can’t be sure if the 1923 Kiltallagh Catholic Church marriage record for John Doyle and Catherine Kerins, refers to the daughter of your John Kerin and Mary Keane, even though the marriage record shows that Catherine’s father is John Kerin.

The marriage record shows that Catherine is from Gurraun (Gurrane), Castlemaine. Your Kerin ancestorss were from the Castleisland area, not the Castlemaine area of County Kerry, though Castleisland and Castlemaine are not that far from each other, with the shortest distance between the two towns being 13.4 miles. See: https://is.gd/0EXzGu

The other thing is, I found that a 5 year old Catherine Kearin and her family were counted in the 1911 living in “Gurraun,” County Kerry. Her parents are John and Norah. See the census transcription at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Kilnanare/Garrau…

This Catherine Kearin was born in Gurrane on 31 July 1905, according to her birth record. Her mother’s maiden name was Sullivan. Catherine’s birth record is Number 230 in the attached birth register.

But, one of the things that points to this Catherine Kerins possibly being the daughter of your John and Mary is that her husband James Doyle at the time of the marriage was a “Widower,” implying that he may not have been in his late teens or early 20s, but an older gentleman. John and Mary’s Catherine was born in 1887, which would have made her 36 years old in 1923. It’s unfortunate the marriage record does not give the age of the groom and bride in 1923.

Once again Kerry, I can’t say for sure that this Catherine Kerin is the daughter of your John Kerin and Mary Keane.

As you saw earlier, the 1911 census for the Kerins family in Mullaghmarky, shows that John and Mary’s daughter Catherine is not in the household with them.

When I first came across this census I had several questions about why Catherine was not living with her parents and siblings in Mullaghmarky. Could she have been out on her own and working in Mullaghmarky or a town in the area? Or, could she have left Ireland, perhaps for the United States? Could she have married? In 1911 she would have turned 24. The other question I had was, could Catherine have been deceased?

I looked for a marriage and a death record for Catherine between 1901 and 1911 but did not find either a marriage or death record for her recorded in the Tralee Registration District, which I believe was the district covering Mullaghmarky.

I next looked for Catherine Kerin in the 1911 census. I wanted to see if I could find a Catherine Kerin who would have been around 24 years old, as that would place her birth year circa 1887, which is the year that your John and Mary’s Catherine was born.

I found a possibility. The 1911 census shows that a 24 year old Kate Kerins was working as a domestic servant in the household of 40 year old Kerry O’Sullivan and 38 year old Bridget O’Sullivan and their 2 children. There are also two farm servants in the household. The address of the O’Sullivan residence is Ballybeg, Kilteentierna.

The census shows that everyone in the household is from County Derry. That’s because in a copy of the original handwritten census, the spelling of the county does look like Derry, but it really is Kerry. Back in the 19th century when there was no country known as Northern Ireland, the county was known as Londonderry in official documents.

See the census transcription at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Killeentierna/Ba…

See a copy of the original 1911 census for the O’Sullivan family at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002483159/

A Google Map shows that Ballybeg is 8.2 miles south of Mullaghmarky where the Kerin family lived: https://is.gd/h7JHJa

The questions I had with this census were, why was Catherine Kerins working in this household? Did she and her family know the O’Sullivans? Or, were the O’Sullivans related to the Kerin or Keane families?

These questions prompted me to see if I could find Kerry O’Sullivan’s birth record. If his age of 40 in 1911 is accurate, he would have been born circa 1871 in County Kerry, not Derry.

I specifically wanted to see what the maiden name of his mother was. For example, I wanted to see if his mother was a Kerin or maybe a Keane.

I found the birth record for Kerry “Sullivan” at the irishgenealogy.ie website, showing he was born in Kilquane, County Kerry on 12 September 1871. His father is John Sullivan. His mother is Catherine Sullivan, formerly Keane. And so, this may be the connection. Catherine may have been related to the Sullivan/O’Sullivan family through her mother, Mary Keane and through Kerry O’Sullivan’s mother Catherine Keane. The birth record for Kerry Sullivan is Number 191 in the attached register.

But again, I can’t say with 100 percent certainty that the Catherine Kerins in the 1911 census is John and Mary’s daughter.

Kerri, have you obtained the U.S. baptism records of all the children of Simon, Ulick, and Mary Kerin to see who the godmothers of the children were? If one of the godmothers was named Catherine, she may be the sister of one of the parents of the children, even though her last name may not be Kerin, as Catherine may also immigrated to the U.S. and may have been married, going by her husband’s surname.

I’m going to close here, but I’ll send another reply, as I want to see if I can find more information about John Kerin and Mary Keane.

The reply incudes 14 attachments which are listed below:

Kerin and Kean 1893 marriage
John Kerin 1902 death
Catherine Kerin 1887 birth
Bridget Kearin 1889 birth
Denis Kerin 1891 birth
Patrick Kerin 1893 birth
Simon Kerin, 1895 birth
Ulic Kerin, 1898 birth
Mary Kerin 1904 birth
Catherine Kerin 1905 birth
Sullivan and Kerrin 1893 marriage
Bridget Kerin 1911 death
Mary Kerin 1912 death
Kerry Sullivan 1871 birth
____

This reply took a little longer than I expected as I had to research two different families where the parents were John Kerin and Mary Keane. I had to determine which were in your direct line, and which were not, though as noted earlier, the two John Kerin and Mary Keane families may have been related. You had it exactly right when you wrote that there were two Keane families in Kerry where the parents had the same names and where the names of some of their children were the same. That was great research on your part, which helped me to separate the two Kerin/Keane families through marriage, birth, and census records.

Best Wishes Kerri. Will write back soon.

Dave

Attached Files

Hello Kerri,

The last communication dealt mainly with census records as well as civil registration birth, marriage, and death records. This reply will concentrate mainly on church baptism records, but also on Irish property tax records as well as some birth records.

I found the baptism transcriptions for 6 of the 7 children of John Kerin and Mary Keane at the irishgenealogy.com’s Church Records collection. The baptism that I didn’t find was for Mary, who was born in 1904.

The children were all baptized in the Castleisland Catholic Parish. The Knocknagoshel Catholic Church was in the Castleisland Catholic Parish. The transcriptions are coming up.

You’ll see in the baptism for Catherine that her year of birth is 1877, when it should be 1887, according to her civil registration birth record. This may have been an error in transcription or an error on the part of the person who originally recorded the baptism.

In the baptism for Bridget you’ll see her place of birth transcribed as “Currahern,” when the birth record gives the birthplace as Currans. Currahern may have been the location recorded in the baptism record, as at the time of the baptism there doesn’t seem to be standardized spelling for names for towns and parishes.

What I like about baptism records is that they provide information that birth records do not, specifically, the names of the sponsors, or godparents. The godparents traditionally are the brother or sister of the child’s father and mother, or other relatives, or friends of the father and mother.

I generally like to access baptism transcriptions at the FMP website, as the transcriptions are attached to original baptism records held by the National Library of Ireland. But, in this case the Castleisland Catholic Parish baptisms are only available until the year 1880.

The baptism transcriptions from irishgenealogy.ie are below:

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - CASTLEISLAND
Baptism of CATHERINE KERIN of CURRANES on 5 July 1877
Name CATHERINE KERIN
Date of Birth 3 July 1877
Address CURRANES
Father JOHN KERIN
Mother MARY KEANE
Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 SIMON KEANE
Sponsor 2 ELIZABETH KERIN
Priest REV.J.O'DONNELL

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
3 N/R 204 KY-RC-BA-139408
The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - CASTLEISLAND
Baptism of BRIDGET KERIN of CURRAHERN on 14 May 1899

Name BRIDGET KERIN
Date of Birth 13 May 1889
Address CURRAHERN
Father JOHN KERIN
Mother MARY KEAN
Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 EDMUND NOLAN
Sponsor 2 HELEN NOLAN
Priest REV.F.CARMODY

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
3 N/R 220 KY-RC-BA-142753
The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - CASTLEISLAND
Baptism of DENIS JOSEPH KEARIN of CURRAHEEN on 27 February 1891

Name DENIS JOSEPH KEARIN
Date of Birth 24 February 1891
Address CURRAHEEN
Father JOHN KEARIN
Mother MARY KEANE
Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 PATRICK RIORDAN
Sponsor 2 HANORA KEANE
Priest REV.M.ALLMAN

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
3 N/R 237 KY-RC-BA-141739
The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - CASTLEISLAND
Baptism of PATRICK KERIN of CURREEN on 12 March 1893

Name PATRICK KERIN
Date of Birth 9 March 1893
Address CURREEN
Father JOHN KERIN
Mother MARY KEAN
Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 PATRICK BRODER
Sponsor 2 MARY BRODER
Priest REV.J.CARMODY

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
3 N/R 252 KY-RC-BA-141974
The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - CASTLEISLAND
Baptism of SIMON KERIN of CURREHEEN on 24 February 1895

Name SIMON KERIN
Date of Birth 20 February 1895
Address CURREHEEN
Father JOHN KERIN
Mother MARY KEANE
Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 JOHN BRODER
Sponsor 2 MARY MCCARTHY
Priest REV.J.FORAN

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
3 N/R 266 KY-RC-BA-142201
The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - CASTLEISLAND
Baptism of ULICK KERIN of CARRAHEEN on 8 November 1898

Name ULICK KERIN
Date of Birth 6 November 1898
Address CARRAHEEN
Father JOHN KERIN
Mother MARY KEANE
Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 BRIDGET KEANE
Sponsor 2 NR NR
Priest REV.J.FORAN

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
4 N/R 14 KY-RC-BA-142670
The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Kerri, in my last reply you saw that Patrick Kerin (1893) and Mary Kerin (1904), were born in Curaheen, which is about 16 miles east of Castleisland, while Castleisland is just south of Mullaghmarkey, where the Kerin family was recorded in the 1901 and 1911 census enumerations.

The baptism transcription above shows that residence of Patrick and his family was Cureen, which I take to refer to Curaheen. But, the question I had before sending the previous reply and the question I still had while compiling this reply was: Why would John and Mary Kerin have children living in Curaheen, but then have a household several miles away in Mullaghmarky?

I believe I found the answer. In the birth records for Patrick and Mary the townland of birth (Curaheen) was actually the alternate spelling for Cahereen East or Cahereen West. This would also apply to the residence of Patrick and his family in the baptism transcription you see above. When you see a map of Castleisland, Mullaghmarky, and Cahereen East and Cahereen West, you’ll see why Cahereen as the residence makes more sense than the similar sounding Curraheen. See the Google Map at: https://is.gd/y5eo5k

On an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period, you’ll see that Cahereen East is actually a townland situated within Castleisland itself, just to the left of the R.C. Chapel. See the map from GeoHive at: https://bit.ly/3h3qq0r

On another Ordnance Survey Map from the 1888 to 1913 time period, you’ll see that the R.C. Chapel is called St. Stephen’s & St. John’s. This is the name of the church where the Kerin children were baptized. You can also see the location of Cahereen East just to the left of the church: https://bit.ly/2XCARQS

On another Ordnance Survey Map from the 1888 to 1913 time period, you’ll see the location of Cahereen West toward the lower left-center of the map, just to the right of Tonbwee: https://bit.ly/2ByX0qM

It makes much more sense that the Kerin family had lived in Cahereen East or Cahereen West, rather than Curraheen, when Patrick and Mary Kerin were born.

According to the Buildings of Ireland website the church in Castleisland was constructed in the 1880s and renovated circa 1910 and renovated again between 1961-1962. This structure would have been constructed on the site of the old R.C. Chapel. For details about St. Stephen and St. John’s Church in Castleisland, go to the Buildings of Ireland link at: https://is.gd/hdepKL

You can see the locations of St. Stephen and St. John’s Church and Cahereen East on a Google Map: https://is.gd/vVW93C

For a Google Street View of the church see: https://is.gd/5PfVgW

JOHN KERIN AND MARY KEANE

I now wanted to see if I could find the individual FMP baptism records for John Kerin and Mary Keane. I began the search with John Kerin. Determining when John was born and baptized was a challenge. For example, the 1901 census for Mullaghmarky shows he was 40 years old. Ten years later, the 1911 census shows he was 60 years old, while his and Mary’s November 14, 1886 marriage record doesn’t give their age at all.

But, what we do know from his 1886 Knocknagoshel marriage record is that he had been living in “Curraheen” when he married and that his father was Denis Kerin, who was a farmer. By the way, one of the witnesses to the marriage was Bessie Kerin. She may have been the Bess Kerrin and Bess Sullivan who was present at the births of several of the Kerin children.

I now believe however that John Kerin was living in either Cahereen East or Cahereen West, rather than several miles away in Curaheen, as notd earlier in this reply.

I figured John Kerrin would have been born sometime in the 1860s or perhaps even the 1850s, and so I looked for his baptism record from the years 1850 to 1868. The information that I didn’t have about John Kerin, aside from the year he was born, was the first and maiden names of his mother.

At the FMP website I found a candidate that may pertain to yourr John Kerin, who was baptized in the Kilteentierna Catholic Parish on 19 June 1858. His father is Denis Kerin. His mother is Julia Fleming. You can access the baptism transcription at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5167733

A copy of John Kerin’s baptism is the first Number 19 in the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634281#page/67/mode/1up

The residence of his family is Currow. The name of John’s godfather looks like Wm. Fleming. The godmother is Catherine Kerin. The priest who baptized John was the Rev. M. Moriarty.

The townland of Currow is only about a mile west of Ballybeg, where Kerry O’Sullivan and his family were shown to have been living in the 1911 census. See the Google Map at: https://is.gd/h31QIR

Also see: https://is.gd/VGS7Fz

The Catholic Parish of Killteentierna was located in the Civil Parish of Currans. One of the Catholic Chapels in the parish was actually in Currow itself. Today, the church is called the Church of the Immaculate Conception.

For a Google Map showing the location of the Church of the Immaculate Conception in Currow, see: https://is.gd/4InIYp

For a Google Street View of the church see: https://is.gd/SxEFFS

According to the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website, the Church of the Immaculate Conception was built in 1957. See: https://is.gd/834IjI

To view a map from the Buildings of Ireland site of the location of the church, see: https://webgis.buildingsofireland.ie/HistoricEnvironment/?REG_NO=213048…

If you compare the modern-day map from Buildings of Ireland of the Immaculate Conception Church in Currow, with an Ordnance Survey Map of the R.C. Chapel in Currow from the 1837 to 1842 time period, you’ll see the newer structure is located in the same location: https://bit.ly/2UuCzCf

I next looked for the FMP baptisms of other children of Denis Kerin and Julia Fleming, and found one. This is for Bridget, who was baptized in the Killteentierna Catholic Parish on 26 January 1854: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6312065

Bridget’s baptism is the 9th entry down from the top of the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634281#page/63/mode/1up

The residence of Bridget and her parents is Currow. The godparents are John Kerin and Julia Fleming. Julia the mother and Julia the godmother were probably cousins. The Rev Moynahan baptized Bridget.

I didn’t find the baptisms for any more children of Denis Kerin and Julia Fleming, nor did I locate the church marriage record for Denis or Julia.

The John Kerin in the baptism record shown earlier may be your direct ancestor, but I can’t prove that conclusively because I didn’t know what his mother’s name was before looking for his baptism record. At this point it is circumstantial evidence that he, as well as his parents are your direct ancestor.

I’m going to proceed with the information I found about the Kerin family based on the circumstantial evidence that John, his father Denis, and his mother Julia Fleming, are your ancestors, as there is the possibility they may be.

The National Library of Ireland website shows that the Killeentierna Catholic baptisms go back to 1801, while marriages begin in 1803.

I looked for but did not find a baptism record for Denis Kerin in Killentierna or anywhere else in County Kerry before the year 1850.

But I did find two FMP baptism transcriptions, one of which may pertain to the Julia Fleming who would later go on to marry Denis Kerin. One of these children was baptized in the Killteentierna Catholic Parish on 18 November 1827. You can access a copy of the original baptism record for Julia at:
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634281#page/23/mode/1up

Julia’s baptism is on the right-hand page at Number 18 under the November subheading. Her parents are Garret and Cath. Brosnan of Ballybeg. The godparents are John and Julia Brosnan.

The other Julia Fleming was baptized in the Killeentierna Catholic Parish on 5 August 1828. A copy of her baptism can be found at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634281#page/24/mode/1up

Her baptism is the first entry under the August subheading on the right-hand page. Her parents are John Fleming and Mary Nolan of Currow. The godparents are John Green and Mary Kerrisk.

One of these baptism records may refer to John Kerin’s mother.

GRIFFITH VALUATION

For the next search I wanted to see if I could find Denis Kerin in an Irish property tax record known as Grififths Valuation. Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for Mullaghmarky, Castleisland, Currow, Cahereen East, Cahereen West, and surrounding townlands was completed by the year 1853.

Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent on Gale Day for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the askaboutireland website link at: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

I found Denis “Kearin” in Grififths Valuation leasing property in Mullaghmarky. The transcription of the record is below:

No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 1
Civil Parish: Castleisland
Townland: Mullaghmarky
Occupier: Denis Kearin
Immediate Lessor: Richard Chute
Description of Tenement: House and land
Area of Land: 3 Acres, 2 Roods, 29 Perches
Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 18 Shillings
Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 6 Shillings
Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 1 Pound, 4 Shillings
____

Griffiths Valuation shows that Denis Kearin leased a house and over 3 acres of land in Mullaghmarky from an Immediate Occupier named Richard Chute. The land was valued at 18 shillings while the house was valued at 6 Shillings. The total value of the lease was 1 Pound and 4 shillings. Denis would not have been required to pay a tax on his lease as only those leases valued over 5 Pounds were subject to the tax.

The house in Mullaghmarky that Denis leased may be the same house where John and Mary Kerin and their children were recorded in the 1901 and 1911 census.

MARY KEANE

I looked for Mary’s baptism taking place in the 1850s and 1860s as I didn’t know how old she was when she and John Kerin married in 1886. The marriage record shows her father was Simon and that her residence was a townland that looks like Tooreenmore. But, it is unknown who Mary’s mother was.

I initially located a baptism transcription for a Mary Keane at the in the Church Records collection at irishgenealogy.ie website under the name of Mary Kane, but also found her civil registration birth record, also at irishgenealogy.ie, under the name of Mary Keane.

But, I am not totally convinced that the baptism and birth records refer to your Mary Keane, as I’ll point out later.

The baptism shows that Mary was born on 18 November 1868 and baptized in the Knocknagoshel Catholic Parish on 22 November 1868. Her parents are Simon Kane and Bridget Carmody. The residence of the family is transcribed as, “Bunavaille.” The actual spelling, or perhaps modern-day spelling of this townland is Bunavalla.

On a Google Map, Bunavalla actually looks like a part of the town of Knocknagashel. See the map at: https://is.gd/EqW32g

The baptism transcription also shows that Marty’s godparents are Terence Carmody and Honora Forhan. The Rev. L. O’Regan baptized Mary. See the transcription at:

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of MARY KANE of BUNAVAILLE on 22 November 1868

Name MARY KANE
Date of Birth 18 November 1868
Address BUNAVAILLE
Father SIMON KANE
Mother BRIDGET CARMODY

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 TERENCE CARMODY
Sponsor 2 HONORA FORHAN
Priest REV.L.O'REGAN

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
1 12 N/R KY-RC-BA-360297

The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

As previously mentioned I also found the birth record for Mary Keane, daughter of Simon Keane and Bridget Carmody. The record shows her birth took place in Knocknagashel on 28 November 1868 and that her father was Simon Keane, a farmer residing in Knocknagashel. Mary’s mother is Bridget Keane, formerly Carmody. A Bridget Callaghan of Knocknagashel was present at the birth and reported the birth to the local registrar, Richard Harold, who recorded Mary’s birth in the Tralee Registration District on 7 December 1868. Mary’s birth is Number 315 in the attached register.

Bridget Callaghan may have been a relative or the local midwife who delivered Mary.

The irishgenealogy.ie website’s Church Records collection also shows three more Knocknagoshel Catholic baptisms for children of Simon Kane/Keane and Bridget Carmody. These children are Luke (1871), and the twins Margaret and Simon (1876). Kerri, are there any twins in your family?

See the transcriptions below:

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of LUKE KANE of CULLEGATTA on 2 November 1871

Name LUKE KANE
Date of Birth 31 October 1871
Address CULLEGATTA
Father SIMON KANE
Mother BRIDGET CARMODY

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 GEORGE CALLAGHAN
Sponsor 2 MARY CALLAGHAN
Priest REV.M.O'FLAHERTY

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
1 31 N/R KY-RC-BA-360602

The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.
____

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of MARGARET KEANE of CULLEGATTA on 22 October 1876

Name MARGARET KEANE
Date of Birth 21 October 1876
Address CULLEGATTA
Father SIMON KEANE
Mother BRIDGET CARMODY

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 JOHN KEANE
Sponsor 2 HONORA KEANE
Priest REV.P.PIERSE

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
1 66 N/R KY-RC-BA-361116

The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of SIMON KEANE of CULLEGATTA on 22 October 1876

Name SIMON KEANE
Date of Birth 21 October 1876
Address CULLEGATTA
Father SIMON KEANE
Mother BRIDGET CARMODY

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 JOHN KEANE
Sponsor 2 ELLEN KEANE
Priest REV.P.PIERSE
About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
1 65 N/R KY-RC-BA-361117

The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

The three baptisms above show the family residing in “Cullegatta.” This refers to Coolagatta, which is located near Knocknagashel and Bunavalla. See the Google Map at: https://is.gd/laBfnu

As previously mentioned I also found the birth record for Mary Keane, daughter of Simon Keane and Bridget Carmody. The record shows her birth took place in Knocknagashel on 28 November 1868 and that her father was Simon Keane, a farmer residing in Knocknagashel. Mary’s mother is Bridget Keane, formerly Carmody. A Bridget Callaghan of Knocknagashel was present at the birth and reported the birth to the local registrar, Richard Harold, who recorded Mary’s birth in the Tralee Registration District on 7 December 1868. Mary’s birth is Number 315 in the attached register.

Bridget Callaghan may have been a relative or the local midwife who delivered Mary.

After uncovering the baptism transcriptions and birth records for the Keane children at irishgenealogy.ie I now wanted to see if Simon and Bridget Keane were recorded in the 1901 census, and if so, if they were living in Knocknagashel or one of the nearby towns such as Coolagatta or Bunavalla.

I found a 50 year old widow named Bridget Keane living in Knocknagashel East with two of her adult children as well as servants in the household. The children are 27 year old Mary and 25 year old Luke. The ages of Mary and Luke in the census do not match their years of birth in the baptism and birth records above, but as previously mentioned, ages in the 1901 and 1911 census returns are frequently inaccurate.

The 1901 census shows that 27 year old Mary is “Not Married.” This means that this Keane family could not be the Keane family in your direct line, as your Mary Keane married John Kerin in 1886. The other information the census shows is that in the household is a visitor, Willie Carmody. I suspect Willie was not only a visitor but related to Bridget, whose maiden name was Carmody. In all the baptism and birth record you see above, the mother of the children is Mary Carmody.

You can access a copy of the 1901 census transcription from the National Archives of Ireland by going to the following link: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kerry/Knocknagashel/Kn…

I’m not sure why, but those related to Bridget in the Keane household were not transcribed in order by age, as they are in a copy of the original 1911 census. See: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000887295/

Indications are that Simon Keane and Bridget Carmody are not the parents of your Mary Keane, based on the 1901 census.

By the 1911 census 70 year old Bridget Keane was living in the household of her 40 year old son Luke and Luke’s 40 year old wife Delia and their 5 children in Knocknagashel East. In this census Bridget’s age increased from 50 in 1901 to 70 in 1911, while Luke’s age increased from 27 to 40 years old, once again showing that ages in the 1901 and 1911 census are not always accurate. Bridget’s daughter Mary, who was in the 1901 census, is not in the household with her mother and brother.

See the 1911 census transcription at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Knocknagashel/Kn…

The census shows that Luke and Delia were married for 8 years as of 1911. With this information I found Luke’s marriage record, showing that he and Delia Murphy were married in the Catholic Chapel at Knocknagoshel on 4 February 1904. At the time of marriage Luke was residing in Bunavalla, which more evidence that Bunavalla was a part of Knocknagoshel. His father is Simon Keane, though the marriage record does not say that Simon was deceased at this time. The marriage record is the last entry in the attached register.

THE OTHER SIMON AND BRIDGET KEANE FAMILY

Ironically, I found the Knocknagashel Catholic Church baptism records of other Keane Children whose father was Simon “Kane,” and whose mother was Bridget. But in these records Bridget’s maiden name is Downey. But I didn’t find a birth or a baptism record for a daughter named Mary Keane.

The irony with this family is that they lived in “Taureenmore,” which today is spelled Tooreenmore, and which was Mary Keane’s residence when she and John Kerin married in 1886. In contrast, none of the children of Simon Keane and Bridget Carmody were born in Tooreenmore.

The children of Simon Kane and Bridget Downey are John Kane (1868); Patrick Kane (1870); Margaret Kane; (1871); Kerry Kane (1873); Laurence Keane (1875).

The baptism transcriptions form irishgenealogy.ie are below:

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of JOHN KANE of TUAREENMORE on 21 June 1868

Name JOHN KANE
Date of Birth 18 June 1868
Address TUAREENMORE
Father SIMON KANE
Mother BRIDGET DOWNEY

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 JOHN MURPHY
Sponsor 2 JOANNA MURPHY
Priest REV.P.MORIARTY

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
1 10 N/R KY-RC-BA-360259

The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of PATRICK KANE of TUAREENMORE on 22 January 1870

Name PATRICK KANE
Date of Birth 21 January 1870
Address TUAREENMORE
Father SIMON KANE
Mother BRIDGET DOWNEY

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 JOHN KANE
Sponsor 2 JOANNA CONNOR
Priest REV.J.O'CONNOR

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
1 20 N/R KY-RC-BA-360410

The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of MARGARET KANE of TUAREENMORE on 22 October 1871

Name MARGARET KANE
Date of Birth 17 October 1871
Address TUAREENMORE
Father SIMON KANE
Mother BRIDGET DOWNY

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 DANIEL CURTIN
Sponsor 2 MARGARET FALVEY
Priest REV.M.O'FLAHERTY
About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
1 31 N/R KY-RC-BA-360593

The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC) Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of KERRY KANE of TUAREENMORE on 9 February 1873

Name KERRY KANE
Date of Birth 5 February 1873
Address TUAREENMORE
Father SIMON KANE
Mother BRIDGET DOWNEY

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 CORNELIUS CONNOR
Sponsor 2 JOANNA KANE
Priest REV.M.O'FLAHERTY

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
1 40 N/R KY-RC-BA-360740

The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KNOCKNAGOSHEL
Baptism of LAURENCE KEANE of TUAREENMORE on 6 March 1875

Name LAURENCE KEANE
Date of Birth 2 March 1875
Address TUAREENMORE
Father SIMON KEANE
Mother BRIDGET DOWNEY

Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 TIMOTHY CURTIN
Sponsor 2 JOANNA MURPHY
Priest REV.T.CARMODY

About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
1 54 N/R KY-RC-BA-360935

The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
____

I actually found the civil birth records of more than the four “Kane” children you see in the baptism transcriptions above. But, in the birth records, the surname of the children is Keane.

I’ve attached the birth record for a child named Kerry Keane, who was born in Toureenmore on 5 February 1873, which is the same date of birth as found in his baptism record. In the birth record his father is Simon Keane and mother Bridget Downey. Kerry’s birth is Number166 in the register.

I haven’t attached the birth records of the other children of Simon Keane and Bridget Downey, as I don’t know if this family is your Mary Keane’s family.

Also, because of the 1901 census, I can’t be sure that Simon Keane and Bridget Carmody are the parents of your Mary Keane.

At this point I don’t recommend adding the above information concerning the two Simon and Bridget Keane families to your genealogy record until you have the further opportunity to do more research.

What do you think about these records?

There are 8 attachments with this reply:

John Keane 1864 birth
Catherine Keane 1866 birth
Mary Keane 1868 birth
Luke Keane 1871 birth
Thomas Keane 1874 birth
Simon and Margaret Keane 1876 birth
Keane and Murphy 1904 marriage
Kerry Keane 1873 birth
____

With Best Wishes Kerri,

Dave

I can't thank you enough, Dave, for having such a thorough look! I will go through these records thoroughly tomorrow and compare them to what I have. I am doing a little better with the church records lately, since I have been attending a genealogy course on line once a week for the past few weeks. I want to be thorough and sure before I reply, but I am very excited to have a look at all of these documents. I will write back soon.
Take care,
Kerri

You're welcome Kerri and many thanks for writing back. Please let me know how you are progressing and if you find anything new.

Best of Luck with your continued research.

Dave

Attached Files

Hi Dave,

I'm adding a picture of Denis Kerins' birth certificate that I have here thanks to my grandmother who saved it. Aunt Bess is listed as being present at his birth, so I think that you are on to something with Bess as well. I am still trying to piece things together here (and also helping my children finish up their lessons for the year :)) I also added a picture of his Certificate Of Cititezenship. I have not been able to verify baptismal or birth records for any of the Kerins siblings yet, but I hope to soon. So far I have only found an obituary for Patrick (buried in a Castleisland cemetery) and Simon (who lived in New York) and  death records for Mary and Ulick in Rhode Island.

Have a nice weekend, 

Kerri

 

Attached Files

Hi Kerri,

Thank you for sending the birth certificate and citizenship record for Denis Kerin. Those are very nice looking documents and you must be proud to have them. Have you thought about putting them in a mat and frame to preserve them?

Speaking of documents, I found several others that you may or may not have. Two of them have to do with Denis filing a Declaration of Intention to become a citizen. These declarations were known as, “First Papers,” as they were the initial documents to be filed in the process to become a U.S. citizen.

The first declaration was filed on April 4, 1914, when Denis was living at “17 Dennis St., Boston, Rox,” which I take to mean Roxbury, Boston. The declaration also shows he sailed from Queenstown in Ireland and arrived in the U.S. on the ship Majestic on 30 May 1912. His last foreign residence was County Kerry.

The Declaration of Intention for Denis looks like it is in a book, as there is another declaration on the right hand page for a Morris Uzinsky from Minsk, Russia.

The second declaration was filed on 6 August 1926 when Denis was living at “24 Fairbury Street Boston Rox.” The declaration shows Denis arrived in the New York on the ship Majestic on June 1, 1911, and that he was from County Kerry, Ireland.

Denis had to file this second Declaration of Intention to become a citizen because the declarations are valid for 7 years. The previous declaration was filed 12 years earlier in 1914.

Denis also filed a Petition for Citizenship on 21 September 1932 when he was living at 17 Robey Street, Boston, Roxbury. His occupation was “teamster.” The declaration erroneously writes his wife’s name as “Nora,” rather that Dora. His and Dora’s 7 children are recorded in the declaration, which further shows that Denis was born in, “Mullighmarkey, Kerry,” and that he arrived in New York from Queenstown, Ireland on the Ship Majestic on May 31 1912.

All three documents are attached to this reply.

You can see the locations of Dennis Street, Fairbury Street, and Robey Street in the Roxbury sections of Boston at: https://is.gd/N8iwP7

I also found the passenger list for the Majestic, which landed in New York (he would have landed at Ellis Island) on May 22, 1912. The passenger list is attached to this reply. Denis is the second person listed and shows he was a 21 year old laborer from Ireland and that his last permanent residence was Newbridge, Ireland. The name and address of his nearest relative in Ireland is his father, John Kerin. I could not make out the full address for John. It is something House in Newbridge, Kildare.

I didn’t know there was a connection with County Kildare and the Kerin family as Kildare is just west of County Dublin, clear across the country from County Kerry. The ship’s list also shows that Denis’s final destination in the U.S. was Dorchester, Mass.

See the Google Map showing that Newbridge, Kildare, is between 147 and 156 miles from Mullaghmarky, where the Kerin family had lived: https://is.gd/n94XpN

I next found that Denis registered for the draft during World War I. Attached is his draft registration card dated June 5, 1917, showing he was living at 20 Fairbury Street in Boston, and that he was born on February 27 1891 in County Kerry Ireland. Under citizenship he wrote, “Intentions declared,” meaning he filed his Declaration of Intention to become a citizen. He also wrote that he was employed as a teamster with J. Ferrari at 20 Lime Street, Boston. His draft registration card also notes that he has a wife and children and that he is claiming an exemption from the draft because he has a wife and children to support. He also stated he had no prior military service, that he was tall, with a medium build, and had blue eyes and brown hair. He also stated he was not bald, and that he was not disabled.

Twenty-five years later, during World War II, Denis filed a draft registration card showing he was living at 29 Burges Street in Boston. He was 51 years old and born in County Kerry on February 27, 1891. The name and address he gave for a person who would know his address was Mary I Kerns of 29 Burgess Street in Boston. His employer was P.D. Coakley of 1246 Mass Ave, Boston.

I could not attach the back of the WW II draft registration card, but it shows that Denis was 5 feet and 10 inches tall and weighed 175 pounds. He had blue eyes and brown hair with a ruddy complexion. He had no obvious physical characteristics that could identify him. He filed with local draft board #21 on April 26, 1942. The United States had been at war with Germany, Japan, and Italy for a little over 4 months when Denis filed with the draft board.

A Google Map shows that Burges Street is just south of Robey Street in Dorchester: https://is.gd/eqhTxb

Thank you again Kerri for writing and attaching Denis Kerin’s birth record and citizenship paper.

Dave

Attached Files

Hi Dave,

Thank you so much! I did not have the Decloration of Intention, only the Petition for Citizenship and I did not have the draft registration (but have heard something to that effect about it). I love to see his signature! Mary Kerins could have been his oldest (my grandmother Mary Isabel Kerins who went by Isabel).  The Petition for Citizenship mixes up her birthday with her sister Dora Louise (went by Louise) who was actually younger. I know this for a fact because I knew my Grandmother and Aunt Louise very well. We know Burgess Street and Robie Street! The family lived on Robie Street when my grandmother was born but lived on Burgess Street prior. Thank you for linking the street map, it is so great to see! These documents are definitely our Denis! I am still working through for Kate and Bredget. I wonder why they went to Kildare and if perhaps I will have luck searching for them there. I am so lucky that my grandmother saved those documents and I love to look at them and know that she held them in her very hands and that her father may have held them in his hands as well. I do have his original passport from his visit to Kerry that I know he definitely held in his hands.

Thanks again Dave!

Sincerely,

Kerri

Attached Files

You're welcome Kerri and thank you for sending the passport documentation. You are very fortunate to have these records.

It is great to be in touch with someone like yourself who sees the value of genealogy research in these troubled times. It makes you wonder what our great grandparents and grandparents would think about what is going on in the world today.

With Very Best Wishes,

Dave.

Thank you so much, Dave. With great sadness I have cancelled our trip to Kerry in September. I am hoping to visit My. Cavalry soon with my kiddos who have not been. Just waiting on Uncle Den since mother doesn't need think that we should be go alone. She is on the phone with no him now. Take care!
Sincerely,
Kerri

Kerri, That is unfortunate about your trip to Ireland. But don't give up hope. There's always next year.

When you do decide to go send an email and I can give you some tips about traveling in Ireland. I've gone to Kerry several times over the years and have spent a lot of time there visiting relatives in Kenmare, which is a beautiful little town on the Ring of Kerry, about 50 miles south of Knocknagashel, where Dora Warren and her siblings were baptized.

Kind Regards and very best wishes,

Dave

Thanks Dave, It would to be great to get some tips and your perspective of Kerry! That is very kind of you and I will definitely let you know when we will be coming as soon as I know. It would be awesome to see Knocknagashel! We do pass by the church where Dora and Denis were married in Dorchester from time to time, and that is the city where their kids grew up, my grandmother and her brothers and sisters who she helped raise after her mother Dora died. Visiting Kerry next year is my hope!

Take care and thank you so much for all of your helpful and kind efforts.

Sincerely,

Kerri

You're welcome Kerri. I do hope you can travel to Ireland next year. Please keep in touch when you are finalizing your plans. Have you considered renting a car? That will be the best way to visit the places where you ancestors had lived. It takes about a day or two to get used to driving on the left side of the road. That will be an adventure in itself. You can practice by going to Google Street View and drive virtually on the left side of the road in Ireland just to get some idea of what it will be like.

Thanks for writing Kerri, and stay safe.

Dave

Yes, Dave, I have considered renting a car, but I am terrified and thank you for thet google street view suggestion. I was planning on renting one, but only using it as absolutely necessary. My oldest son will most likely come and drive. I don't know what sacres me more (him driving or me). Ha - Ha! I will definitely try the virtual driving on the left side! I drove down Dorchester Ave today and decided that next time I will take a picture.

Best wishes!

Sincerely,

Kerri

Hi Kerri,

I found a great article about renting a car in Ireland. You can read at the article at: https://irelandfamilyvacations.com/car-rental-ireland/ireland-travel-ti…

If you do decide to rent a car, you will need to book it with a credit card. Before doing so however, you'll want to contact your credit card company and see if they pick up what is called the CDW, or Collision Damage Waiver insurance, so that you do not have to purchase the insurance yourself. If your credit card company does pick up the tab for CDW, you will need a letter of Authorization from the credit card company stating that CDW is covered. Your credit card company can email you the authorization. The letter of authorization must be dated less than two weeks before you pick up your rental your car in Ireland.

If CDW is not covered by your credit card company, you'll want to purchase it before driving in Ireland.

The article I sent goes over CDW insurance.

Again, if you do rent a car, set up the rental from the States, not when you arrive in Ireland, that way, you'll be able to go directly to the car rental desk at the airport and sign in and then pick up your car. If you are going to fly into Dublin when you first arrive in Ireland, DO NOT rent a car for the time you are in Dublin, as Dublin is a challenge to navigate. If Dublin is your first stop, use public transportation for the time you are there, and then pick up the rental car on your last day in Dublin. Dublin has great bus and train service. The train service for Dublin is called, "Dart," for "Dublin Area Rapid Transit." I like to also use the bus. Like London, Dublin has doubledecker buses. I like to sit up on the top deck and take in the sites of "Dublin's Fair City where the girls are so pretty..."

One little trick I learned when driving in Dublin, Belfast, Cork, or Limerick City, is that if you do not know how to get to the road you are looking for out of the city, ask a cab driver to lead you to the road, but to go slow so that you can follow. I usually offer 10 or 15 Euros to the cabbie for the assistance. The cab driver in Limerick City that I asked to follow to get me to the road to County Clare, wouldn't take any money at all. Maybe because it was St. Patrick's Day.

If Shannon Airport is your first stop, pick up your car rental as soon as you retrieve your baggage.

When I go to Ireland I take a bank debit card and a credit card backup. I used to use travelers checks, but those are a pain. There are ATMs all over Ireland. If you use your debit card for primary expenses, contact your bank and see if there is a daily limit to the amount of money you can withdraw. If there is a daily limit and you do not think it is enough, or think it is too much, you can ask your bank to change the daily limit to what you desire.

I found that thinking about driving on the left hand side of the road in Ireland, is worse than actually doing so. You'll get acclimated to it after a day or two. Keep in mind that gas, or petrol, as they call it in Ireland, is very expensive, but I don't believe it would be as expensive as hiring a driver to take you to the places you want to go, though that is another option you have.

A couple of other things to know about cars in Ireland. The hood of the car is called the "Bonnet." The trunk of the car is called the "Boot."

Before I drop off my car at the airport at the end of my trip, I always vacuum the interior at a petrol station. In Ireland, when you vacuum, you are "Hoovering." When you go to a petrol station that has vacuum service, you can ask how much it is to "Hoover" your car. They'll know what you’re talking about. Hoovering comes from the Hoover vacuum company, which is still in existence.

I'll close here Kerri. My little cat Guinness ( a stray that adopted me) is shedding like crazy and I have to “Hoover” the carpets before the fur storm gets out of hand. The thing is, I'm not even a cat person ( I like dogs) or a Hoovering type of guy. Ah, but what are you going to do?

If you have any questions don't hesitate to write.

All the Best,

Dave

Attached Files

Hi there davepat,

I just wanted to let you know again how much I appreciate all of your work researching my family and that you have been a tremeandous help. I also just noticed that I did not answer your question about John Kerins being a weaver. Yes, I did know, only because it is on my grandfathers birth certificate. I don't know much about the craft but hope to learn more about it in time. I will send a little snapshot of what I have here.

Thanks again ever so much,

Kerri

You're welcome Kerri and many thanks writing and for your kind words.

With Best Wishes,

Dave

And also before I forget- as I am researching my Sullivans in Ireland about 1801, the Kildare area is coming up which I find interesting because in some of your research here it came up with my Kerins family (as did the name Sullivan). I know that it may be a coincidence and that there are a lot of Sullivans in the world, but I don't believe in coincedences. On that note, good night and thanks again for all of your great work!!

Thank you for the update Kerri. Please keep me posted on how you are doing with the Sullivans and any connection with the Kerins and County Kildare.

Best of Luck with the research Kerri.

Many thanks again for writing.

Dave

Kerri my name is Kathleen Warren and we are cousins. I just found this by accident and I've been doing the family history for 35 years. I have a lot of this info but can't wait to look through it to see anything I need. My parish affiliation is Killeentierna which is why I didn't see your post. Your Timothy and my great granddad John Warren were either brothers or 1st cousins. There's a family murder story that may be on above records. I'll go through them and see and contact you again. I live near Philadelphia, PA.

Hi there Cait. I apologize that it has taken me so long to respond, I just saw your message here. It would be great to here from you again and here more about the Warrens.  I hope that you find something. Take care!

I would also like to thank DavePat again for his tremendous work here! Thanks again DavePat!

You're welcome Kerri.

Dave

I've tried twice to reply and it keeps throwing me out while I'm checking the family tree dates on my laptop. I just saw part of my tree missing on Ancestry. And it's Dora's father Timothy who is gone. Wow. This is alarming. Anyway he was born on 8 June 1856 in Castleisland and died 20 January 1913. His son Patrick received his worldly goods. About 3 pounds or so. Very sad. Patrick emigrated to New Hampshire in 1914. His brother John (who married Margaret Herlihy) also went to New Hampshire. The other brother Tim also came over to NH but was unhappy and went back to Ireland. I was able many years ago to look through the old Amoskeag mill records. The actual paper records. Before computers. It was so wonderful. They probably won't let you do that now. Anyway when I can attach things I will. But I want to send this now.

Are you Merry Fontaine's daughter? She and I met in 2013. My cousin and I went to a picnic in Duxbury to meet your family. If so, your mom knows the murder story. One problem with researching Warren's is that the Irish Gaelic version of Warren is Murnane. It is used interchangeably in records. I figured that out after many years of research. I cannot be sure that Dora's dad is the one born in 1856. There was another Tim Warren born in the family in 1860. He might be that Tim. Only one Tim shows up in later records. Part of the problem is the name Murnane and the other is the murder. Tim born in 1856 was born Tim Murnane with parents Ty Murnane and Mary Donoghue. My great granddad John's birth also says John Murnane born to Ty Murnane and Mary Donoghue in Currow (which is also Killeentierna) parish. Tim and Mary Donoghue were married in Currow in 1855. So I assume that John and Tim are brothers. John always said he had a brother Tim. But a cousin Timothy was born in 1860 to Jeremiah Warren 2 months after John's father Ty was murdered. So maybe John was raised with THAT Tim as brother even though they were first cousins. So I cannot trace them further. If I could get a birth record for Dora's father I would know. But I have never found one. And the Catholic records at nli.ie where you can browse show that Castleisland's records are illegible. They're supposed to be indexed at Findmypast but I want to see the actual record. I think some things were missed in the indexing. Especially if the records were unreadable. So that's my story for now. I am going to have to fix my tree now on Ancestry. I'll let you know when I do and then you can view it.

Hi Cait. Merry is my mother's first cousin. I will ask her about the story. I may have even been at that picnic. And I have heard of Warrens in NH. I do have the marriage record for John and Margaret. Thank you so much for filling me in here. I will keep checking in :)

Kerri

I'm so glad I saw your post. So one of the things you relearn over and over again in genealogy is going back over your research for new clues or things you missed. I realized that on Tim Warren and Mary Lyne/Lyons marriage cert is the names of their fathers. And Tim's father is Timothy! So he IS my great granddad's brother for sure. That's a real dynamite find for me! I knew the marriage date but had not seen the actual record. So thank you!

Hi Cait,

I'm so happy that you found something here, but don't thank me thank davepat for finding it!