Ogilby/Colville history

If you obtain a copy of the couple?s marriage certificate, it should give you their townlands (addresses) at the time they married plus their fathers names and occupations. With that information it may be possible to locate the family homes.

You can view the certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the ?search registrations? option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

(You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs ?2 to a view a certificate).  I see the date of the marriage was 31.10.1878 and it was registered in Larne.

If you post the relevant information, I can search and see if I can trace the 2 families.

Tradition was to marry in the bride?s church (which should be on the certificate, unless it was a Registry Office marriage). That church may be the place to look for her baptism and that of any siblings. The records may not be on-line and you may need to get someone to go to PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast to look at the copies held there.

I can see a John Ogilby in Sheriff?s Land, Kilwaughter in 1861, in Griffiths Valuation. He had plot 6c which was a house and garden, such as a weaver or labourer would have had. However I can?t say at this stage whether that?s Samuel?s family without more information from the marriage certificate.

There were a couple of Ogilby families in Kilwaughter in the 1851 census (which is not complete). They could be connected to your family. One of them had evidently moved over from Scotland sometime after 1823:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1851/Antrim/Upper_Glenarm/Kilwaughter/Drumnadonaghy/12/

(Most of the Presbyterian families in that area originated in Scotland but the main migration was in the 1600s).

You ask why your ancestors might have left Ireland. I am sure they left for the same reasons that 2 million others did. To find work. Ireland has very few natural resources (no oil, coal, iron ore etc) and so did not benefit from the industrial revolution in the 1800s, the way Scotland, England, the US, Canada & Australia did, which created hundreds of thousands of comparatively well-paid new jobs in new industries (coal mining, steel making, railways, ship building etc). So that was a big pull factor. There had also been a huge population explosion in Ireland going up from about 3 million people in 1750 to 8 million in 1830. There simply weren?t jobs for all those people. In much of Ireland the only employment was subsistence farming topped up in Ulster and one or two other areas with a bit of linen weaving. And then the straw that broke the camel?s back, along came the famine, numerous times throughout the 1800s. The worst period was when the potato crop failed almost completely 3 years in a row in the late 1840s, and then partially several more years after that.

Other factors led to the continued emigration too, eg early mechanisation on farms. With new machines to turn the soil and plant seed, farmers no longer needed an army of agricultural labourers to help on the farm. So those jobs were rapidly disappearing. Likewise mechanisation had led to linen factories being set up in places like Belfast. These made home weaving uneconomic and so also upset the labourer?s family economy. Agriculture was the biggest single employer in Ireland, but it was mostly a barter economy. Few people had any ready cash save what they could make from weaving or any government sponsored work such as building new roads. So when the opportunity arose to get jobs with a regular wage packet, as opposed to a few pence from your father each week, the decision to migrate wasn?t really all that hard to make. So it was as much about economic betterment as anything. The famine wreaked havoc in most of Ireland but in Co Antrim, a comparatively wealthy county, it wasn?t too severe (and most bigger farmers had not been one crop dependant) so I would say it was less of a reason for your particular ancestors leaving than it was for others elsewhere in Ireland.

There was a massive tide of migration all through that century, including long before the famine. Years after the worst of the famine it?s impact was still being felt across Ireland, and there were still plenty of much better job opportunities in Australia and the USA. (After Scotland and England, the USA was the most popular destination for emigrants with about 40 to 50% choosing it. Only about 5% of Irish emigrants chose Australia and New Zealand, possibly due to the costs and length of the voyage).

Dates of birth for the children appear to be:

Mary 21.5.1879

Ellen 18.11.1880

John 30.10.1882

Looking at the 1901 census I see quite a few Ogilby households in the Larne & Kilwaughter area. Many were Non Subscribing Presbyterians (sometimes also known as Unitarians). So if you decide to check church records to trace the families backwards make sure you check the NSP records as well as those for the Presbyterian Church in Ireland. (The records are in PRONI in Belfast).

I can see 3 Ogilby families in Larne in the current phone book but whether they are related or not is impossible to say at this stage:

http://www.192.com/people/search/

Thank you Ahoghill Antrim.  I now have a marriage certificate  

Married at 1st Pres Church Islandmagee, Parish of Islandmagee County Antrim

On Oct 31st 1878 Samuel Ogilby, full age, Widower Blacksmith, living Islandmagee, father John Ogilby, Farmer, married by licence Margaret P Colville, full age, spister, living Islandmagee, father Samuel Colville, Farmer.   Both Samuel and Margaret signed  in the presence of John Colville and Ellen Ogilby

As far as I am aware there was little contact between the families in Ireland and Australia after Samuel and Margaret migrated.   As a child I never heard any family members mention anything about Ireland and both Samuell and Margaret died long before I was born.

Samuel's son by a first marriage, Robert, migrated with the family but he died here in 1888 aged 13 years.

Also accompanying the family to Australia was a Mary Colville, (born c.1797).  Mary died in Australia in July 1884, aged 87 and the informant on her death certificate was Samuel Ogilby, Grand Nephew.  Mary appears to have paid her own way on the voyage so there is very little information about her in the shipping/migration records.

I think Ellen Ogilby who witnessed the 1878 marriage may have been Samuel’s sister. Here is a marriage for her in 1879 when she was 22. Her father was John Ogilby farmer, which fits. And she married another blacksmith, Edward Bodel.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11072/8051481.pdf

Can’t see them in the 1901 census so they appear to have left Ireland.

This is the only Colville family in Islandmagee in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Islandmagee/Ballymoney/989838/

The family in 1911, with a son named Samuel, so that makes me wonder if they are related to Margaret Colville.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Island_Magee/Ballymoney/188208/

So I looked at the marriage certificate and confirmed James father was Samuel Colville, farmer.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1898/10404/5788591.pdf

Samuel Colville is listed in Griffiths Valuation for Ballymoney, Islandmagee in 1861. He had plot 12 which was a 22 acre farm. That farm today is on the Gobbins Rd.

Samuel Colville died 22.11.1897 aged 77. Samuel's wife Mary died 13.12.1896 at Ballymoney. She was 69.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05851/4657945.pdf

Probate abstracts

Probate of the Will of Samuel Colville late of Ballymoney Islandmagee County Antrim Farmer who died 22 November 1897 granted at Belfast to James Colville and William Alexander both of Ballymoney Farmers.

The will is on-line on the PRONI site and names 10 children: James, Ellen, Eliza Jane, Martha, John Thomas, Robert, Margaret, Agnes, Mary & Isabella, plus 1 grandchild Ellen.

Colville James of Ballymoney Islandmagee county Antrim farmer died 25 March 1931 Probate Belfast 2 June to Samuel Colville seaman and Alexander Ross grocer. Effects £252 16s. 8d.

Colville Samuel of Ballymoney Islandmagee county Antrim retired seaman and farmer died 2 September 1956 at the Moyle Hospital Larne county Antrim Probate Belfast 21 November to Mary Armour married woman and David Campbell farmer. Effects £2688 12s. 10d.

The above 2 wills are not on-line  but should be held in PRONI in paper format. They will copy them for a fee or you could get a researcher to look them up.

It looks as though there were Colvilles farming in Islandmagee in the 1950s but I can’t see any in the local phone book today. However as many people are not listed these days, that’s not conclusive. You would probably need to knock on a few doors in Gobbins Rd or ask at the church to find out for certain.  The 1897 will shows there are descendants of around 8 or 9 siblings to trace. However there’s probably a fair bit of work in that and you might want to employ a researcher if that’s what you would like to do.

Elwyn  I hope you are still at Ireland XO.   I apologise for my non reply to your very detailed information above and which I thank you for.

My research has been on hold for a couple of years, first because of a disastrouse fire which took 68 homes at my local village in March 2018 and then the Black holiday bushfires which occurred here at New Year's eve 2019.  I am part of Red Cross Disaster so have been somewhat pre-occupied.   Now however we have a belated lockdown with Covid 19 and I find myself with no meetings, commitments away from home, etc. and time for research.

I also have another Irish mystery and will try to add his details but, in the meantime, I am searching for a John Calderwood who married a Jenny Gordon in Scotland in 1815 and 3 children were subsequently born in Scotland.   

John was subsequently tried for (an unknown crime) at Carickefus 23 July 1823 and transported to Australia on the "Prince Regent (3) in 1824.   Bicentennial Information provided to Aust by the Irish authorities stated that none of the relevent papers, information or documents had survived and that the only information available was the date of trial and transportation of "John Catherwood/alias Sinclair".    He was known as John Calderwood in this country and had petitioned for his wife and children to be allowed free transport to Aust but for some reason Jenny and the children did not come out.

Where do you suggest I start looking?

Dede,

In case you haven’t the details, I see John Catherwood/Calderwood’s marriage to Jenny Gordon in Southend, Argyll, 16.12.1815, with children James 1.5.1817, 20.1.1819 and Mary 25.2.1821, all baptised in Southend.  So John’s move across to the Ireland appears to date to between 1821 and 1823.

Southend is at the extreme tip of the Kintyre peninsula and is only about 9 miles from the Co. Antrim coast. Folk were back and forth all the time.

Catherwood/Calderwood is not a common name around Kintyre. But Gordon is. There are quite a few Gordon births in Southend in the early 1800s. I would speculate therefore that John came from elsewhere in Scotland or from Ireland and went to Kintyre for work where he met Jenny. Hence their marriage and 3 children born there.

I don't see any sign of her in the 1841 census for Argyll and assume she had left or died. However I do see marriages for a James Calderwood on 7.12.1846 (to Agnes Darrach) and for Henry on 8.12.1853 (to Grizzell Blackwood), both in Campbeltown. So did the 2 sons stay in Kintyre? I think that they did because I can see a death for Henry in Campbeltown in 1897 aged 65. Mother’s maiden name is given as Gordon. I see deaths for children of Henry & Grizzell = Peter aged 1 in 1867, Thomas Semple aged 4 in 1880, John, no age 1860, Mary aged 21 in 1885 and Janet 21 in 1875. Mother’s maiden name given as Blackwood.

Grizzell is an alternative for Grace.

You might want to investigate those 2 families in the Scottish censuses and statutory records. I see several trees with Henry & Grizzell/Grace on Ancestry.

Not sure what happened to Jenny Gordon. She may have died or moved away. I looked for a remarriage but did not see one in Scotland. Did she ever go to Ireland or did she stay in Kintyre, given that her sons seem to have stayed there. 

I searched Irish newspapers for any record of John Calderwood’s trial. There is a report on the Assizes in the Statesman of July 30th 1823 which says there was only one important trial in that session. Sadly it wasn’t your ancestor’s. So his case apparently wasn’t reported.

Most court records from that period were destroyed in the 1922 fire in Dublin (as you have already learned) so there’s unlikely to be much more on the case.

I hope this helps. Looks as though there might be family in Scotland to pursue. I didn’t see anything on the daughter Mary born 1821. But perhaps you know what happened to her.

Thank you Elwyn

It appears that Jenny and the children returned to, or remained in Ireland, after John was transported in 1824.   

In 1827 John petitioned for his wife and three children to be brought to Australia stating that "your petitioner was married at Southend Parish of Kintyre Argyleshire in 1815 by the Rev Alex Levy and his wife is at present residing at Kilmoyle Parish of Remoan in the County of Antrim.....................

...........................that your petitioner begs to refer as to character for honesty and sobriety to Mr Andrew Braithenridge Northern Parish Kintyre, the Rev Daniel Kelly Southern Parish Kintyre, Mr John Price and Mr Joseph Askin both of the Parish of Remoarn County Antrim.

Wife's maiden name Jane Gordon, native place Southend Argyleshire, the Revd Pt Kelly or any of the other gentlemen could notify petitioner's wife - and the Rev Mr Tinne 'Meeting Minister' in the Parish of Remoarn County Antrim could do the same."

It appears that either Jenny did not wish to come to Australia with the children or the authorities were unable, or unwilling or just didn't try to find her as in 1828 John again requested that Jenny and the childrlen be granted free passage to Australia.  However Jenny and/or the children did not come out and John subsequently remarried in Australia in 1832.

I am interested in learning the reason for John's trial as he led an honest life in this country, gaining his Ticket of Leave and Conditional Pardon and was employed as a Police Watchhouse keeper at one stage.   Also the alias Sinclair is intriguing as I have been unable to find any reference to "Sinclair" in any Calderwood records.

I intend folllowing up on John and Jenny's children in Scotland.

As to Ogilby/Colville - your information was most appreciated regarding this family.   I intend getting the two Wills mentioned earlier, specially now that I have an account with pounds sterling for relatively minor costs thereby saving high exchange rates.   Not enough hours in a day, specially now that most Covid restrictions have been lifted in my area.  I trust that you are keeping safe.   We do not have a lot of information on the current Covid situation in other parts of the world.

Again, thank you for your very helpful information regarding both  my query families.

Dede

Dede,

The parish in Ireland that Jenny may have been living in is Ramoan. That’s around Ballycastle on the north coast of Co Antrim and is just a few miles from Southend in Argyll.  In the summer months there’s a ferry between Campbeltown and Ballycastle that goes right past Southend.

There isn’t a townland of Kilmoyle in Ramoan but there is one nearby in Grange of Drumtullagh. You can see Kilmoyle on the map attached to Griffiths Valuation. It’s an agricultural area just a few miles from Ballycastle. On the modern Lisnagat Rd. 2 or 3 miles southwest of Ballycastle. No Catherwoods living there in 1861.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

The Rev Tinne was probably the Minister in either Ballycastle Presbyterian church or Ramoan Presbyterian. “Meeting Minister” is a distinctly Presbyterian term. Presbyterians often describe their church as their Meeting House. The Presbyterian Historical Society in Belfast keeps records of all Presbyterian Ministers in Ireland and if you are interested, you could e-mail them and they will provide details of where he served. (Presbyterian Ministers often spend their entire career at one church).

https://www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com

The petition mentions Joseph Askin & John Price. I can’t find any reference to a Joseph Askin near Ramoan. There is one Askin in Loughguile which is about 10 miles from Kilmoyle. However I do see 3 Prices in Lisnagat in the 1803 agricultural census.  (Charles snr, Chas junior & Daniel). Lisnagat is about 150 yards from Kilmoyle. There was also a John Price in Ballintoy which wasn’t too far away either. So that seems to confirm the area where Jenny was living.

You can find the 1803 agricultural census on Bill MacAfee’s website:

http://billmacafee.com

I have no idea what Jenny might have been doing in Kilmolyle. Obviously it was easy enough to get to from Southend but there's no sign of any Calderwood/Catherwood families in that immediate area.  It’s just agricultural land and any work there would be on farms and weaving. There were only a few Calderwoods in that part of Antrim and they were in the parish of Ballymoney which is a bit further away. 

In 1881 son Henry was a cow feeder in Campbeltown. (Census attached). So the family seem to have had an agricultural background.

The term “alias” sometimes arises where a woman was widowed and had young children. If she remarried, the children didn’t always just take their stepfather’s surname.  So Calderwood alias Sinclair suggests that possibly John’s mother had remarried, and he used both surnames. Not uncommon. The word alias should just be interpreted as “otherwise”. There’s nothing sinister in the term alias in this context.

You say that Jenny didn’t come out to Australia and then John remarried in 1832. Might that be because she was dead? The children might then have been sent to stay with their grandparents or with some other family member in Kintyre. They certainly seem, to have been back there by the 1840s. Unfortunately death registration didn’t start in Ireland till 1864 and Presbyterians generally don’t keep burial records, so if Jenny died in the Kilmoyle area c 1830, there is not likely to be any record. Nor is she likely to have a gravestone, if she were a farm worker or weaver, which I suspect is the type of work she is likely to have been doing.

You wonder about why John was convicted. Really hard to say. He was tried at the Assizes. That was a court that sat quarterly and dealt with more serious offences. Carrickfergus in the 1820s was the main town in Ulster and was where the Co Antrim Assizes were held. (They later moved to Belfast). The sorts of crimes heard at the Assizes were murders, serious assaults and thefts, counterfeiting, robbery and so on. That said, it was possible to get transported then for crimes that wouldn’t seem so very serious today. (I have a female ancestor who was 21 and living rough in a small town in Scotland. In 1828 she broke into a local pub and stole some clothing. No drink, just clothing to keep her warm. That was burglary though and so got her transported to Oz for 7 years. Her case papers have fortunately survived. Today we’d be sending for the welfare people instead. Things were different at the time our ancestors were convicted and transported ).

Dede,

A little bit more on James Calderwood, son of John and jenny. He died in Glasgow in 1881 as result of an accident in a railway freight yard. He was a coal merchant and was crushed by the buffers of a couple of coal wagons. Presumably they were being moved and he got in the way.  Death was instantaneous according a note in the Scottish register of corrected entries.

Copy of death certificate attached. Both John and Jane/Jenny were noted as dead in 1881.