McCammons of Balleymena

Skerry is a parish a few miles to the east of Ballymena.

I think that the marriage of David McCammon and Mary Carleton was in 1918. There?s a marriage that fits that in the indexes registered in Ballymena Apr ? Jun 1918 Volume 1, page 147. His father was John and hers Henry.

Here?s Mary in the 1911 census with her family:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Moboy/123585/

I would order a copy of the marriage certificate. That should give you David?s address and that may help identify his family in the 1911 census.

Oh my goodness! Thank you so so much! I was not expecting an answer so quickly... I wish my grandmother was here still to enjoy this! 

How did you find their marriage record? How might I pay for it? I'm very interested in finding where they lived... My grandma was only 5 or so when she left, and all she remembers is a lot of cherry trees along the driveway. But she does say that it was "childish memories" so neither of us are too sure how accurate that memory is! 

Again, thank you so much for finding out so much so quickly! 

Morgan

I found the marriage by looking at the Irish civil registration indexes on the Familysearch site.

The originals of Irish BDM certs are not viewable on line. There are some pay to view sites where you get transcripts but they don?t all have all the details eg addresses and witnesses, so if you want to see the full details on the certificate you have to order a copy. I use GRO Roscommon because they offer a photocopy option, which is cheaper than a full formal certificate, and it eliminates the possibility of transcription errors. Provided you give them accurate information, and they don?t have to do any searching, a photocopy only costs ?4 (euros).

Go to the GRO Roscommon website: www.groireland.ie/  Download the application form you need, and complete with the information you have, including the location, year, quarter , Volume & page number. Put that information on the lines for date and place of the event etc. Don?t worry if you have to leave some boxes blank, eg PPS number. Be sure to tick the box marked photocopy, if that suits you, as it?s cheaper. You then either fax or post the form off (there is no e-mail option for certs pre 1.1.1922). Their turnaround time is 7 to 10 days plus however long the post takes. Once you get the certificate, let me know the townland (address) and I?ll see if I can find the house for you.

As far as Henry Carleton is concerned, he was an agricultural labourer. That typically meant he would have a small house on a bigger farm. He?d be required to provide an agreed number of days work on the farm a year as part payment of his rent (sometimes full payment). He would have normally been on a lease that allowed him to move on every year, and agricultural labourers often did move around. However in this case it looks as though the family had been at the same farm for at least 10 years. The house they occupied had stone or brick walls, a thatched roof, 2 to 4 rooms and 3 windows at the front. (Almost certainly single storey). Their landlady in 1911 was Clara Black. (You can get all that information from the additional census pages).

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Moboy/940228/

In 1901 their landlord was Samuel Black (who had evidently died between 1901 & 1911). So you know that the Carleton cottage was almost certainly on Samuel Black?s farm. Here?s the landlord in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Mob…

From the marriage indexes I can tell that Samuel Black married his wife Clara in 1888 and that his father was also Samuel Black. Looking then at Griffiths Valuation for Moboy (1862) I can see that Samuel Black (ie the father) was farming a combined total of 56 acres in Moboy (plots 8 & 9) so that looks to be the farm where Henry and family lived. There were no less than 8 agricultural labourers cottages there at that time (though they?ll likely be gone now). That farm is about 3 miles south of Rasharkin. It?s up a lane off the Townhill Rd, near the junction with Blackstone Rd. (Look at Griffiths Valuation and you should be able to find it).

Henry Carleton and his wife Elizabeth Marks married in 1896 by the way. (Ballymena Jan ? Mar 1896 Volume 1, page 113).

Elwyn

Wow, Elwyn, you are amazing at this.

Was it a sort of system similar to the crofters in Scotland then? Was there a way of 'passing' a tenancy onto another family member if you chose to no longer live there? I ask because my Grandma once said that they had 'lost' the farm to her fathers brother... apparently some bad feelings erupted out of this. But it doesn't make any sense - they would have had to own to have lost it, so maybe it was over the tenancy? 

Is there a place i can find out more about their tenancy, after I of course find the positive location of their cottage? Rent logs, evicitions, what the grew and how much they produced/sold? Surely their landlord would have kept these records, but where might I find them now-a-days?

Thank you for the picture-in-words of the cottage too. Why would they be gone now - were they demolished to create more farmland? Is this area still used mainly for crops, or animals? I suppose I could really find that out for myself online, nevermind! 

I'm off to see how well I do at this form now, and I will be back in touch as soon as I recieve my photocopy in the post! I'm very VERY excited!!

Thanks again!

Morgan

Morgan,

No it?s not the same as the crofting system, especially since the Crofting Acts which created special unique conditions and rights. Irish land leases were really just the same as any lease you might enter into today. There were leases for varying periods. Farmers tended to have them for several years or longer. In some cases for 3 lives at a time, and these would be handed on to the next generation, or sold, so long as the lease had not expired. Agricultural labourers were unlikely to have a lease long enough to be worth selling but there was usually nothing to prevent the sale of any lease (unless there was a clause restricting or prohibiting it in the lease). Ag labs tended to have leases for a year, or sometimes they were "at will" ie no notice required.

With some of the big estates such as the Earl of Antrim there  are excellent sets of rent records which have been deposited with the public record office in Belfast, but for your average middle ranking farmer, like the Blacks, leasing a few cottages to agricultural labourers and weavers who worked for him, I wouldn?t expect to find any surviving records. Not 100 years later.

The area is still rural agricultural land. The main farm will undoubtedly still be there, and you shouldn?t have too much difficulty finding it. You?ll need to get a decent scale map of the area. You can see where it is on the Griffiths maps (which have a facility that overlays a modern map). A satnav/Tomtom will probably be no use at all. It won?t recognise the address with sufficient accuracy. You will need to rely on old fashioned navigation with a map. I have had another look at the Griffiths map and realise I gave you slightly incorrect directions previously. Plots 8 & 9 in Moboy are on either side of the modern Lisnahunshin Rd. Plot 9 (where all the cottages were) is just south of the point where the Blackstone Rd meets the Lisnahunshin Rd. Using google earth, I can see a house with a red barn on plot 9 today. (Plot 8 is obscured by cloud). The modern address should be Lisnahunshin Rd but Blackstone Rd is probably an easier way of finding it on google earth. Lisnahunshin runs roughly south east out of Rasharkin, to nowhere in particular. Your farm is about 3 miles down that road. Knock on the door and see who is there today. You?ll surely get a friendly welcome and they?ll show you around but whether they?ll know the history of the place or have any old records is debatable. I'd say not.

The reason that the cottages have mostly gone is that with mechanisation, the need for agricultural labourers disappeared (a factor in the emigration process). So the cottages fell into disuse. Some fell down, some were pulled down and others were converted into stores. More recently people have tended to clear them away as a part of the general process of tidying the farm up or making space for a new barn or extra car parking. You do see the odd one about still but most are gone. I have attached a photo of what a typical agricultural labourers cottage looks like (there?s a row of them beside my own house). You'll need to imagine it with a thatched roof instead of the iron one there now. And if you are visiting Ireland you should go to the Folk & Transport Museum at Cultra, near Belfast where they have examples of them (taken down brick by brick and reassembled in the museum). http://www.nmni.com/uftm/What-s-on

Elwyn

Hello Morgan

I saw your message and it seems that we are cousins on the Carleton side of the family. My Grandpop Thomas (Tommy) was the brother of your Great-grandmother Mary. While Mary went to Canada my Grandpop went to New Zealand.

When I saw your message I got on the phone to check with my Nana (the daughter of Thomas) the following details. Masie (the sister of Agnes) and her husband Jake visited Grandpop and the family in New Zealand about 1960. Grandpop went to Ireland in 1967 to visit the family, while my Nana and Grandad visited Maise and Jake in Vancouver in 1982 on their way to Ireland where they visited Mary Trewin and other family members.

It was great to see your message and I hope that this information links in with what you all ready know. I have managed to work out some of their ancestry but would very much like to find out more.

Gen 1

Thomas (Tommy) Carleton (Miner. Whafy)

b.1896(Antrim) d.1989(Raumati, NZ)

m.(Antrim, Ireland)

From Moboy

Gen 2

Henry Carleton (Weaver/Farm Labourer)

b.1871 d.1953(Moboy,Antrim)

m.13 Jan 1896(Church of Ireland, Craigs)

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Marks (Linenweaver)

b.1871 d.alive 1911

m.13 Jan 1896(Church of Ireland, Craigs)

Gen 3

Robert Carleton (Weaver)

b.1835 d.alive 13 Jan 1896

m.20 Aug 1864(Church of Ireland, Portglenone)

Ellen Moore

b.1840

m.20 Aug 1864(Church of Ireland, Portglenone)

Thomas Marks (Weaver)

b.1842 d.alive 1911

m.18 Jan 1867?

Elizabeth (Eliza/Lizzie) Law

b.1842 d.alive 1911

m.18 Jan 1867?

Gen 4

William Carleton

William Moore

I look forward to your rely and so does my Nana in New Zealand

Jason

Hello Morgan

I saw your message and it seems that we are cousins on the Carleton side of the family. My Grandpop Thomas (Tommy) was the brother of your Great-grandmother Mary. While Mary went to Canada my Grandpop went to New Zealand.

When I saw your message I got on the phone to check with my Nana (the daughter of Thomas) the following details. Masie (the sister of Agnes) and her husband Jake visited Grandpop and the family in New Zealand about 1960. Grandpop went to Ireland in 1967 to visit the family, while my Nana and Grandad visited Maise and Jake in Vancouver in 1982 on their way to Ireland where they visited Mary Trewin and other family members.

It was great to see your message and I hope that this information links in with what you all ready know. I have managed to work out some of their ancestry but would very much like to find out more.

Gen 1

Thomas (Tommy) Carleton (Miner. Whafy)

b.1896(Antrim) d.1989(Raumati, NZ)

m.(Antrim, Ireland)

From Moboy

Gen 2

Henry Carleton (Weaver/Farm Labourer)

b.1871 d.1953(Moboy,Antrim)

m.13 Jan 1896(Church of Ireland, Craigs)

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Marks (Linenweaver)

b.1871 d.alive 1911

m.13 Jan 1896(Church of Ireland, Craigs)

Gen 3

Robert Carleton (Weaver)

b.1835 d.alive 13 Jan 1896

m.20 Aug 1864(Church of Ireland, Portglenone)

Ellen Moore

b.1840

m.20 Aug 1864(Church of Ireland, Portglenone)

Thomas Marks (Weaver)

b.1842 d.alive 1911

m.18 Jan 1867?

Elizabeth (Eliza/Lizzie) Law

b.1842 d.alive 1911

m.18 Jan 1867?

Gen 4

William Carleton

William Moore

I look forward to your rely and so does my Nana in New Zealand

Jason

I am so sorry this has taken me so long. I ordered and received the marriage certificate back in APRIL, but just kept to one side and forgot about it! **sigh**

Now, I don't see a Townland anywhere here! I tried to upload it here, but I don't think its going to let me do it. The only number i have here is next to their names - it says "182". But I think thats the registration number. 

Besides that the only mention of place is the Residence at time of Marriage. For David is is listed as "Taylorstown, Grange Corner" and for her it is "Moboy, Porglenone"

Morgan,

The addresses (residence) where the families lived were Taylorstown and Moboy respectively. Your townland was all that was needed to identify you in rural Ireland until the 1960s. The postman and anyone else who mattered knew where within the townland that each family lived. No further information was required to identify you or get a letter delivered.

I think this is David McCammon, siblings and their mother in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Portglenone/Kilcurry/124160/

and the family earlier in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Portglanone/Kilcurry/940868/

Note that they had 5 children, one of whom was dead by 1911. (There were only 4 in the 1901 census, so I suspect the 5^th child had died before that year).

Christian Brethren is what many people call Plymouth Brethren. (Though Brethren don't particularly like that terminology).

David wasn?t born in Glasgow according to this census, but his brother John and sister Jane were, so perhaps there?s a mix up? Should be easy enough to find the birth certificates if you want to. Let me know if you need help doing that.

As you said, the family evidently went back and forth to Scotland in the 1880s. The family (or at least the mother) were apparently in Scotland c 1881 when E Jane was born, Ireland in 1882 for Agnes birth, Ireland 1884 for David?s birth, Scotland c 1886 for John?s birth.  You might therefore want to check the Scottish censuses for 1881 & 1891 in case the family shows in either of those. (The equivalent Irish censuses have been destroyed).

The revelation records show that John McCammon moved to Taylorstown in 1914 where he was renting plot 7bca. His name was still against that property in 1929 when that set of records finishes. Presumably his son David moved to Skerry parish when he married, to set up his own home, if his daughter was born there in 1922

I can explain how to find plot 7bca, should you ever wish to visit it. To find exactly where David and Mary lived, I?d really need the townland from Agnes birth certificate. Do you have a copy? If not, you can plough through all the revaluation records and find it that way. There?s about 40 townlands in Skerry, so it would be a bit of a plod.

http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm

There's a will in PRONI for John McCammon. Here's the abstract (summary). The will itself is not on-line. You would either need to pay PRONI to send you a copy, or get someone to call and get a copy.

Full Abstract : McCammon John of Taylorstown county Antrim farmer died 19 September 1933 Probate Belfast 8 March to William Law farmer. Effects ?15.

Elwyn

Hi Elwyn!

Yes, I have my Grandma's birth certificate. It says she was registered in the district of Toome in the Registrars district of Ballymena, Antrim. It still lists her father as being David McCammon , Taylorstown.  

I was getting confused between David and his brother about who was born in Glasgow when I wrote the initial post (I didn't have the information right in front of me). 

I'm planning a trip to Ireland in spring 2014! How do I find the plot? I would be so very very excited to see it!!

Thank you!

Morgan

Morgan,

The address where your grandmother was born should be in column 2 of the birth certificate. However if her father was listed a still being in Taylorstown then, then I?d guess that?s where she was born too. 99% of births were at home at that time.

So where does Skerry fit into the family history? Did they move there later, or is it a miusunderstanding?

In many cases the individual plot numbers are shown on the on-line Griffiths maps. That isn?t the case for Taylorstown and surrounding townlands. So you have to get a copy of the Griffiths map, either from PRONI in Belfast or from the local studies section in Ballymena Library. That will then show you precisely where this farm was /is. I know roughly where it is (it?s within half a mile of Grange Corner) but you?ll need the map to pinpoint it more exactly.

The family probably attended Grange Presbyterian Church when they were Presbyterians, so you might want to look at it when you are over. The Brethren have little gospel halls in the area, and when they were Brethren, they probably attended one of them. Hard to say which one, and whether it would still be standing. (Some were a bit ramshackle). Any of your family who died in Ireland whilst they lived at Taylorstown might be buried in Grange graveyard, but if so, there isn?t a gravestone (the gravestones are on-line). The only McCammon gravestone in the area I can find is in Ballymena but it doesn?t have any individual names on it.

I only live about 2 miles from Grange so let me know when you are in Ireland, and if you want, I?ll help you find the farm.

Elwyn

Oh yes, I see it below her date of birth now! It says Taylorstown, you're right. :)

I used two online maps of parishs and townlands that made me find that Ballymena was in "Skerry". I couldn't find Taylorstown, so I went with Ballymena as it was the only place listed on Grandma's birth certificate that I could find on both those maps, and that I had heard her mention frequently. I just assumed they must have been close by each other, so would have fallen into the same parish. Am I wrong?? Is Taylorstown in an ajacent location? Is Taylorstown and actual town, or is it just a group of farmlands?

I'll get onto PRONI and see if I can figure out where this map is. I really am keen to find this place, I heard Grandma and her sister talk about it really fondly, and they went back in the 1960s to see it... I will get in touch as soon as I figure out when I'll be out there next year.

I just have one more question - I don't quite understand about the Brethern. Were the Brethern Presbyterians? Why would my family just switch up religions one day??

Taylorstown is not particularly close to Skerry. Skerry is a parish about 10 miles east of Ballymena, whereas Taylorstown is about 8 miles southwest of Ballymena, and is in the parish of Grange of Ballyscullion. So they are probably up to 20 miles apart.

Taylorstown is a townland. A townland is the smallest administrative area of land in Ireland. They can vary in size from 1 acre up to 5000 acres, though most are between 50 and 500 acres. The whole country is divided into townlands. Many are rural, and there is not necessarily any town in a townland. Indeed some have no-one at all living in them eg mountain tops and uninhabited islands. Originating in the older Gaelic dispensation, and dating back to the 11^th century, if not earlier, townlands were used as the basis of leases in the estate system, and subsequently to assess valuations and tithes in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

In rural areas there were no street names or house numbers (that is still the case in some parts) and your townland was sufficient to identify you or get a letter delivered. The postman, and anyone else who mattered, knew exactly where in the townland everyone lived. They survive today as important markers of local identity.

A group of townlands makes a parish and a group of parishes makes a barony.

In the case of Taylorstown, it is a rural area consisting of 1237 acres. In the 1911 census, a total of 483 people lived there in about 108 houses. Today it remains rural agricultural land, with the centre being a small settlement at a crossroads, with a church, some houses, a car sales room and an Orange Hall. In the past there would have been a post office and one or two shops but these are all gone now. People now shop in the bigger towns. Many residents would still be farmers. Others would commute to offices in places like Ballymena, Antrim or Belfast. Taylorstown is on a hill overlooking Lough Neagh & Lough Beg and there are some spectacular views when the weather is right.

Brethren are not the same as Presbyterianism, though the two denominations are often found together. Religion has often been a very important factor in life across Ireland. There was a big religious revival amongst the protestant community in 1858 with lots of new churches built and a general call for greater church attendance and stricter attention to the gospels. In the case of Presbyterians, it was accompanied by a move towards temperance (previously they had been noted, in official journals such as the Statistical Accounts, for their fondness for whiskey) and this stricter approach to religion appears to have founded various smaller sects. The Brethren have their roots in Ireland and appear to have appealed to a lot of Presbyterians who switched in the 1800s. (Some switched back again too). There are quite a few Brethren in the Taylorstown area still, and you would probably need to speak to one or two of them to get a first hand account of what their precise beliefs are and why they might switch denominations. You can google Brethren, but some of the articles on the web seem more focussed on the Brethren in the USA and I am not sure how relevant that is to Brethren in Ireland. I suspect their beliefs and practices may differ significantly. But as I say, I don?t really know for sure.