Deaths Lookup Request

Daryl,

The Irish civil indexes have just one death that fits Abigail. Registered Lurgan Jan ? Mar 1888 Vol 1, page 640. Est year of birth 1818.

There are two possibles for George, again both registered in Lurgan. Jan ? Mar 1884 Vol 1, page 557 est year of birth 1822. Or Death 1874 viol 6, page 530, est year of birth 1826.

You can order photocopies from GRO Roscommon for ?4 per certificate. Put the place, year, quarter (where there is one), volume & page number on the application form (anywhere). Don?t worry about leaving some boxes blank. You don?t need to fill them all in if you have the reference details. http://www.groireland.ie/ You have to post or fax the form to them but they will e-mail the copy certificate to you if you wish. Tick the relevant box on the form.

GRONI also have copies of these certificates and you can get them from there too. However they charge to access the indexes (?14) and it?s ?4 for a readover of a certificate, so I doubt anyone will be likely to look them up for free for you. Your best bet is probably to order photocopies from Roscommon.

Elwyn

Hi Daryl

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Tartaraghan/Derrykeevan/1032053/

Name: George Tedford 
Event Type: Death 
Event Date: Jan - Mar 1890 
Event Place: Armagh, Ireland 
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1890 
Registration District: Armagh 
Age: 70 
Birth Year (Estimated): 1820 
Mother's Maiden Name: 
Volume Number: 1 
Page Number: 29 
GS Film number: 101596 
Digital Folder Number: 004200678 
Image Number: 00081

Name: Abegail Tedford 
Event Type: Death 
Event Date: Jan - Mar 1888 
Event Place: Lurgan, Ireland 
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1888 
Registration District: Lurgan 
Age: 70 
Birth Year (Estimated): 1818 
Mother's Maiden Name: 
Volume Number: 1 
Page Number: 640 
GS Film number: 101594 
Digital Folder Number: 004200676 
Image Number: 00339

Brendan

www.researchireland.com

Hi Brendan,

Thanks for finding those death entries for George & Abigail, I'm doubtful that's them though as it means that George would have been 10 yrs old when he married Abigail (who would have been 11 yrs old) in 1829. Unless the dates of birth are seriously out :0/ would those birth years be reliable ?

I would have thought that they would have been born circa 1805-10, and I don't know what the legal age was at which you could marry.

Regards

Daryl

Daryl,

Ages are often out by a factor of up to 10 years, at that time. It was just the informant?s best guess.  (I have a copy of a letter written in 1908 from someone who says, ?all I know is that I am aged between 70 and 78?.) People didn?t know their own ages and so the informant was just likely to add further confusion when he/she guessed the age.

To find out if these are the correct certificates, you?ll have to buy them to get the townlands etc. Abigail?s marital status will also tell you whether George was dead or alive at that time. Might be helpful if you are struggling to find George?s death.

Elwyn

Hi Daryl,

I presume Joseph & Sarah are their children, they were born 1840 and 1842. The general rule was that the eldest son inherited the farm, they may have lied a little about their ages.

Brendan

Hi Brendan,

No, as far as I know they didn't have a son named Joseph I'm afraid. Their children were;

Martha     b. 17 Feb 1833   Derrykeeran

Sarah       b. 14 June 1835  Derrykeevan

David       b. 15 Sept 1837  Derrykeevan

Stephen   b. 23 Sept 1839 (my 2 x great grandfather)  Derrykeevan

Eliza        b. 27 June 1843  Derrykeevan

David       b. 28 Feb 1846  Derrykeevan

Mary        b. 12 July 1849  Derrykeevan

I think they were Presbyterian.

Regards.

Daryl

Hi Elwyn,

I guess the only way to find out is order a few certificates from Roscommon, which I'll do over the weekend. I never realised ages were that inaccurate when recording BDM's.

Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Daryl

Hi Daryl,

From what I have read a lot of people who were born in Ireland early 1800's did not know what year they were born. The British Government introduced a pension for over 70's in Ireland 1909, thousands applied.

6th January 1839 one of the worst storms in over 300 years hit Ireland, it killed hundreds of people and left a trail of devestation. You were interviewed for the pension, no 1 question how old were you on the "night of the big wind" was your house damaged? if you could answer the question and give a good account of what you remembered you got your pension.

Brendan

As Brendan says, the old age pension was introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Because birth certs only stared in 1864 most people in Ireland who were eligible for the pension didn?t have one to prove their age. Many therefore applied to their Priest/Minister etc for evidence of age from parish records.

Many people are surprised that someone in the 20^th century might not know how old they were.  I found this letter in the Church of Ireland records in PRONI (MIC 1/37) which was written in November 1908. I assume it was written with the forthcoming pension in mind. However the significance to me is that it is clear evidence that someone at that time had no idea of their age, at least within a span of 9 years.

Hi,

I have an update on my 3 x great grandparents George & Abigail. I found a marriage cert for their daughter Martha in Glasgow 1873, which stated that George & Abigail were alive.

I also found Martha's death cert for 1902, which stated that George & Abigail were both deceased. So I've narrowed down the the time scale as to when they died. I did do a search on SP to see if they died in Glasgow, but without success.

I also came across an Irish 1911 census entry for Stephen's (my 2 x great grandfather) son George TEDFORD who had moved over to Antrim between 1901 & 1911 from Glasow where he was born. He was living at 69 Bristol St, (Court Ward) Antrim with his wife Sarah ne? Cooper and his mother in law, Jane. He married in June 1909 in the Belfast area. How do I find out if he had children, died etc ? I've never done research this recent in Ireland before.

Regards,

Daryl

Daryl,

The information that George & Abigail were both alive in 1873 seems to fit with the possible deaths I have suggested you look at.

George Tedford?s marriage to Sarah Cooper was registered in Belfast Apr ? Jun 1909 Vol 1, page 436.

On the births computer system at GRONI, Belfast, it is possible to search using the fathers? surname and the mother?s maiden name, leaving the childs forename blank, and this throws up all children to that couple (or any other couple with the same names, as sometimes happens). Looking at the on-line indexes there were about 12 children born in Belfast in the period 1911 ? 1921 of the surname Tedford.

You could order copies of all those certificates to see if any were your family. Otherwise you?ll need to contact GRONI (or get a researcher to go there for you). If you go in person, GRONI charge ?14 to access the indexes. That includes 2 free readovers. Subsequent readovers are ?4 each. I am not sure what the fees are if you e-mail them (or ring them). You could ring them up and find out. You can pay over the phone with a debit or credit card.

The records for Northern Ireland on Familysearch and other similar sites all stop at 31.12.1921. Nothing is on-line after that. So if the couple had children after that date, the only way you will find out is by contacting GRONI.

George may not have stayed in Ireland of course. Hartland & Wolff had yards in Glasgow and Liverpool as well as Belfast and they often moved skilled staff between the yards, as required. So he may only have stayed in Belfast for a few years before moving on.

Incidentally, if he was working for Harland & Wolff, and was in Belfast in 1909 ? 1911, then George almost certainly worked on the Titanic.

Elwyn

Hi Elwyn,

Thanks for that info. I'll fax Rosscomon tomorrow for Abigail & George's death certs, and George's marriage cert. I must admit I had a hunch that when I couldn't find George in the Scottish 1911 census, he must have either died or immigrated I just didn't imagine it would be Antrim, Ireland. All of my 2 x great grandfather's children were born in Partick, Glasgow near the big ship building yards and George's father Stephen worked in the ship yard as a engine fitter. George may have moved over to Belfast to work and that's where he met his wife Sarah. It never occured to me he could have been involved with building the Titanic, I wonder if there's any way of finding out i.e. Harland & Wolff records.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards,

Daryl

Hi Daryl,

Belfast burial records, all in the one grave.

Occupants of grave B2 210, Dundonald Cemetery 
Forename  Surname  Age Date of death  Date of burial  Cemetery   Details  Record image
Jane  Cooper  74 Years 7 April 1924  9 April 1924  Dundonald Cemetery  View details   
Sarah  Tedford  77 Yr 19 October 1961  21 October 1961  Dundonald Cemetery  View details   
George  Tedford  34 Years 28 November 1945  30 November 1945  Dundonald Cemetery  View details   
George  Tedford  82 10 October 1965  12 October 1965  Dundonald Cemetery  View details

Brendan
 

Hi Daryl,

In my real life, I work as a probate genealogist, I worked on a case 2011:

The case involved 89-year old Elizabeth Malhotra (nee Grogan) who died in London in 2009 leaving an estate valued at £1.7m (almost €2m) Belfast-born Ms Grogan had emigrated to America in the 1950s where she married airline executive Mohan Malhotra from Pakistan. The couple, who had no children, moved to London in the 1990s where they lived in Belgravia.
Ms Malhotra's estate has recently been settled and is to be distributed among a large number of distant cousins, many living in Belfast.

Belfast burial records were invaluable in sorting out, who was living and who was not in Belfast

Brendan
 

Daryl,

Harland & Wolff's records are in PRONI. A personal visit is generally required to go through them.

Elwyn

Hi Brendan,

lets hope 3rd time lucky for this reply ! Been having problems posting messages.

Thank you so much for finding George and his wife Sarah's burial records. Now I know what happened to him and his family. It sad that his son George died a young man. Is Dundonald cemetery in Belfast ?

I've been trying to find the rest of my 2 x great grandfather's Stephen's siblings, Sarah b.1835, Eliza b. 1843, & Mary b.1849 they were all born in Derrykeevan to see if they stayed in Ireland, or moved over to join their siblings. I know his sister Martha came over to Glasgow, but don't know if his brother David b.1846 did or not, I know he married Hannah Vaughn and had children.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards,

Daryl

Hi Elwyn,

Thanks for letting me know about where to look to H&W records. I'm tempted to visit Belfast to have a look at the archives.

Regards,

Daryl

Daryl,

If you do vist PRONI, then start with D2805/PER/B1 & B2 which are registers of employees in the period 1870 ? 1922.

Elwyn

Hi,

Do I need to let them know beforehand I would like to see the records ? I.e. book an appt, or do I just turn up ? I'd hate to come all the way from Glasgow and be turned away or they weren't available to view.

Regards

Daryl

Daryl,

There?s no appointment system but occasionally records are unavailable because staff or academics have borrowed them. If you are coming from Glasgow, it?d be worth contacting them in advance and confirming their availability. You also need photo id to get a readers ticket (ie driving licence or passport). Takes 2 minutes to get the readers ticket.

There?s loads of Harland & Wolff records. 500 or 600 files. You can search the index on the PRONI site. Type in Harland & Wolff, on the e-catalogue, and they?ll come up. http://www.proni.gov.uk/

Your other option is to get PRONI to research the records for you. They charge something like ?60 an hour and you may not feel prepared to pay that. Or you could get a researcher in Ireland to do the work too. However there is a certain pleasure to be got from doing it yourself.

PRONI is about 10 minutes from Belfast City Airport (flybe from Glasgow). 1 stop on the train (Sydenham which is 10 mins from the terminal building to Titanic) or a taxi ride.

Elwyn

Hi,

I've been trying to find all of George & Abigail's children, and have come across a bit of a mystery regarding 2 of them.

On Roots Ireland I found marriage certs. for some of their children, but details on one of them don't add up. The marriage date for Thomas Burgess & Mary Telford states they were wed on 28 April 1869 in Tartaraghan. Both were living in Derrykeeran, Thomas's father is listed as Thomas, a weaver.

I found Thomas's death cert. yesterday which says his father was named Robert, and his mother Sarah Holland. He was 75 yrs old, and died in Glasgow in 1922. A birth cert. for Thomas's son Holland in 1875 says their marriage was on 28 Apr 1869. Mary's brother David also married, also on 28 Apr 1869 but can't find it on Ancestry or family search. I also can't find a birth for Thomas or his parents marriage.

Did both David & Mary marry on the same day ? or is the Thomas & Mary I've found the wrong couple ? i.e. Telford and wrong father's name.

Daryl

Daryl,

The information on a marriage certificate is more likely to be correct than that on a death certificate. The information on a marriage cert has come first hand from people who are likely to know their parents names and occupations etc, Whereas on a death cert, it?s only the informants best guess. The informant almost certainly never knew Thomas?s parents and errors over their names, especially the mother?s maiden name are very common.

Thomas was born before 1864 so you won?t get a birth certificate for him. You might just find his baptism but to do that you would need to know which church he attended. The records are probably not on-line either. You might find them in PRONI (but you?d need to know the church).

If Thomas was born c 1847 then there?s affair chance that his parents married before April 1845, in which case the marriage won?t be in the statutory records either. Again you would need to know where it took place to try and find it in church records. Assuming it was Tartaraghan and Church of Ireland then their records start in 1825, so you should be OK. A copy is held in PRONI, Belfast.

I can?t see marriage listed for David Tedford/Telford in 1869 in Ireland.

Elwyn

Hi Elwyn,

Thanks for that info. My heart sank when I downloaded Thomas & Mary's marriage record and saw Thomas's father's name & Mary's last name i.e. Telford. All of her siblings who married, were married using the Tedford name. I assumed they were the wrong couple.

I recieved a couple of death certs from Rosscommon today, one for Abigail & one for George. Abigail's could be the right one, she did have a son named David (who signed her cert) and it stated that she was a widow at the time of her death in 1888. I was expecting her parents names to be on it but was disappointed not to see them on it, is this normal for an Irish death cert ?

George's is obviously wrong, his occupation was a retired policeman and he died in 1890 2 years after Abigail.

Is there another George Tedford who died prior to 1888, who was a weaver/farmer who I could order another death cert for ?

Regards,

Daryl

Daryl,

I don?t think there?s any doubt that Abigail?s death is the correct one. Apart from the absence of any other deaths in the records of someone of that name at that period, Derrykeeran (where she died) is not that big. In the 1901 census there were only 38 households in the townland, of which only 1 was a Tedford (evidently David, the informant). You know Abigail lived in Derrykeeran; there?s only 1 Tedford family there, so it really has to be her:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Tartaraghan/Derrykeeran/

Regarding George?s death, Derrykeeran is in Lurgan civil registration district. Farmers didn?t travel much and so I?d be looking for deaths registered there, rather than in Armagh or other districts. In my post dated 31^st Jan I gave details of 2 that fit the information you have. I suggest you order them, as both died before 1888, and you know now that your George died between 1873 and 1888.

The information on Irish death certificates mirrors that on English death certificates. It?s much less than you get on Scottish certs (which you are obviously used to). You don?t routinely get parents names. Sometimes with childrens deaths, a parents name may appear ?son of X? or the informant?s name and identity may help, but in most cases you get no clues. You would need to try church records, if they go back far enough, in the hope you can find George & Abigail?s baptisms. Though you say you thought the family were Presbyterian, note that David in the 1901 census was Church of Ireland (ie the family were ?piskies?). Tartaraghan?s baptisms only start in 1825 (earlier records being lost, so you might not get any help there).

I wouldn?t worry about the Telford/Tedford spellings. Spellings were like ages, they varied all the time.  There was no consistency at all. Robertson and Robinson , Kirkpatrick  & Kilpatrick were similarly swapped back and forth all the time. The idea of a ?correct? spelling is very much a more modern concept.

Elwyn

Hi Elwyn,

Thanks for that info.

I have now been sent George's death cert for 1884, which I have attached.  He died in Derrykeevan, (Abigail was in Derrykeeran) his daughter Elizabeth married a William John Duke, (or at least I think she did) and had a son named James who looks like he signed the death cert. (I've attached their marriage record) I'm wondering if this George is Abigail's husband. Why didn't Abigail sign the cert ? she would have still been alive at the time of George's death.

I have also found out that both George (if I've found the right one) & Abigail are both buried in St. Paul's (Anglican) graveyard, in Tartaraghan. (His son Stephen married in a Prebyterian church in Glasgow in 1868, that's why I thought the family were Presbyterian). Why were they called 'Piskies' ? I've never heard of that before.

The Rector of St. Paul's confirmed they were both interred there, and were also married there in 1829. The witnesses were given as James & Robert Benson, although he couldn't tell me which one was her father unfortunately. It looks like I can't go back any further with the Tedford's.

What do you think ?

Thanks again for your invaluable help.

Regards,

Daryl

Daryl,

I agree I think you have found the right death certificate for George. (I note it was one of the two I suggested, so glad that worked out). Regarding who the informant was, it just has to be someone either closely related to the deceased or who was present at the death. It doesn?t have to be their spouse or closest relative. James was evidently present at the death, and he was a relative, so he qualified twice over. No doubt at that time Abigail was pretty distressed and so the grandson registered it to avoid her having the trouble and grief. That would be quite common. (The death was registered on what was almost certainly either the day of the funeral, or the day after, so you could understand Abigail not wanting to go herself that day).

Tradition was to marry in the bride?s church so the 1868 Presbyterian marriage tells you that the bride was Church of Scotland (ie Presbyterian) but it doesn?t necessarily mean the groom was.

Piskie is short for Episcopalian, which is what members of the Church of Ireland/England are known as in Scotland!

I agree you may well have got as far as the records will allow for the Tedford/Telford line nayway.

Elwyn