Finding our Ancestors- Michael Griffin Family

Kathleen:

If you have not done so already, please complete this form regarding your trip to Ireland. https://www.irelandxo.com/meet-and-greet

We do not have volunteers available in all areas.

Have a great trip!

Roger McDonnell

Hi Roger,

 

Thank you so much for letting me know. I will get that filled out today. We are keeping our fingers crossed.

 

All the best,

Kathleen

 

 

Attached Files

Hello Kathleen,

I’m not related, but based on the photo of the Griffin gravestone inscriptions in your message to Ireland Reaching Out, I uncovered some information about your County Tipperary Griffin ancestors you may be interested in before leaving on your trip to Ireland at the end of July.

The gravestone shows that Michael Griffin of Knockperry, died on 11 May 1876 at the age of 69. His brother Paddy died on 9 June 1991 at the age of 87. Their brother Tim died on 27 September 1998 at the age of 96.

The gravestone also shows that their mother Mary Griffin, who is “Interred Nearby,” died on 7 December 1971 at the age of 94 years.

I found the civil registration birth records for Michael, Patrick, and Tim at the free irishgenealogy.ie website. I don’t know if you have these records or not.

THE BIRTH RECORD FOR MICHAEL GRIFFIN

Michael was born on July 14, 1907 in Knockperry. His father is John Griffin, a “Farmer” living in Knockperry. Michael’s mother is Mary Griffin, formerly O’Neill. John Griffin reported Michael’s birth to the registrar, J. Power, who recorded the death in the Clogheen Registration District on July 23, 1907. Michael’s death is number 469 in the register which you can access after following the prompts at: https://tinyurl.com/ye29a4hh

THE BIRTH RECORD FOR TIMOTHY GRIFFIN

Timothy was born in Knockperry on June 19, 1902. His father John Griffin is a “Farmer” living in Knockperry. His mother is Mary Griffin, formerly O’Neill. John Griffin reported the birth to the registrar, J. Power, who recorded the birth in the Clogheen Registration District on July 1, 1902: https://tinyurl.com/w2f2sf32

THE BIRTH RECORD FOR PATRICK GRIFFIN

Patrick was born in Knockperry on July 2, 1903. His father is John Griffin, a “Farmer” living in Knockperry. Patrick’s mother is Mary Griffin, formerly O’Neill. J. Power recorded Patrick’s birth in the Clogheen Registration District on July 14 1903. Patrick’s birth in number 93 in the register: https://tinyurl.com/d449tf3u

THE 1911 CENSUS

I next wanted to see if Michael, Timothy, and Patrick Griffin were recorded in the 1911 census with their parents John and Mary in Knockperry. The 1911 census was taken on Sunday evening, 2 April.

The census is from the free National Archives of Ireland website.

I didn’t find the Griffin family in Knockperry however. The 1911 census shows they were actually residing in the nearby town of Garryduff, specifically that they were the “Residents of a house 7 in Garryduff (Newcastle, Tipperary).”

House 7 does not refer to the street number of a residence, but the refers to the 7th house visited by the census enumerator.

The head of the household is 50 year old John Griffin, a “Farmer” who cannot read but who can speak both Irish and English. His 38 year old wife Mary cannot read either. She too can speak both Irish and English.

The census shows that John and Mary, as of 3 April 1911, had been married for 14 years, and in that time had 4 children, with all four children still living.

The children in the household are scholars (students), and include 12 year old Tim, who could read and write; 10 year old Paddy, who could read and write; 5 year old Michael, and the oldest child, 9 year old Biddy. Biddy is a nickname for Bridget.

The census shows that everyone in the household was Roman Catholic and born in County Tipperary.

You can access a transcription of the 1911 census from the National Archives of Ireland link at:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Newcastle/Ga…

Once the transcription downloads, check the box, “Show all information,” to view the full census page.

When looking at the 1911, as well as the 1901 Irish census enumerations, it’s good to keep in mind that the age of an individual is not always accurate. A person’s age may be off by several years, or off by a few years. Sometimes the age of a person is accurate though.

You can access a copy of the original 1911 census for the Griffin family at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003299532/

THE 1901 CENSUS

The 1901 census, which was taken on Sunday evening, 31 March, shows that 41 year old John Griffin, his 23 year old wife Mary, and their daughter Bridget, were the “Residents of a house 4 in Garryduff (Newcastle, Tipperary).”

The census transcription from the National Archives of Ireland does not give an age for John and Mary’s daughter Bridget. This is an indication she was less than a year old, though the original census usually provides the age of a child less than a year old.

The 1901 census shows that John Griffin is a “Farmer,” who cannot read, but who can speak both Irish and English. Mary is a “House Keeper,” who cannot read, but who can also speak Irish and English. See the census transcription at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Newcastle/Ga…

A copy of the original 1901 census shows that Bridget was 1 month old:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003910418/

I next went to Google Maps to see how far the townland of Garryduff is from Knockperry. The map shows that Garryduff is just 1.2 miles south of Knockperry: https://tinyurl.com/33xpm5y5

The road on the left in this Google Street View leads to Garryduff: https://tinyurl.com/2s3s6p9v

Here is a Google Street view of Knockperry: https://tinyurl.com/3w7y7epv

I now wanted to see if I could find the civil registration birth record for Bridget Griffin at the irishgenealogy.ie website. I looked several times for her birth record but didn’t find it any time during the early 1900s. I suspect her father John did not report her birth to the registrar.

I also looked for marriage and death records for Bridget well into the 20th century, but was unable to find a marriage or death record in County Tipperary or County Waterford. There is always the possibility I missed locating her marriage and death record.

Speaking of marriage records, the 1911 census shows that John Griffin and Mary were married for 14 years, which, if accurate, places their marriage in 1897.

I looked for their marriage at the irishgenealogy.ie website for the year 1897 but didn’t find it. I then looked for their marriage from 1898 to 1901, and had better luck this time.

THE MARRIAGE OF JOHN GRIFFIN AND MARY O’NEILL

John Griffin and Mary O’Neill were married in the Roman Catholic Chapel of Fourmilewater (County Waterford), on 27 February 1900. At the time of marriage John was a 40 year old “Bachelor.” Mary was a 21 year old “Spinster.” John’s occupation was “Farmer.” At the time of marriage he was a resident of Garryduff. The marriage record also shows his father is Timothy Griffin, a “Farmer.”

Mary’s occupation was “Servant.” Her residence at the time of marriage was a bit of a challenge to decipher, but after a while I found that her residence is a townland called Doonagheeha. Mary’s father is Patrick O’Neill, a “Labourer.”

The name of the priest who married John and Mary looks like Patrick L. Ward. There were three witnesses to the marriage. I couldn’t make out the name of the first witness, but their last name is Colbert. The second witness is Thomas Colbert. The third witness is Mary Walsh.

John Griffin signed the marriage register with “his x mark.” Mary O’Neill signed the marriage register with “her x mark.” See the marriage record after following the prompts at: https://tinyurl.com/3twy66nh

A Google Map shows that Fourmilewater, where John and Mary were married, is just over the border in County Waterford, from Knockperry in County Tipperay. Mary’s residence of Doonageeha on the map, is spelled a little differently than in the marriage record, Doonagheeha:
https://tinyurl.com/2s6cmxzz

The Catholic Church in Fourmilewater, County Waterford, is called Our Lady of St. Lawrence Church. This Google Street View shows the church and graveyard in Fourmilewater: https://tinyurl.com/yu8hp3va

Some of your ancestors may be buried in this graveyard.

This is a very old church. According to the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website, the church was constructed in 1826 and renovated in 1980. See the Buildings of Ireland description at: https://tinyurl.com/2p995fw4

JOHN GRIFFIN BAPTISM

The 1901 census shows that John Griffin was 41 years old, placing his year of birth in 1860. The 1911 census shows he was 50 years old, placing his year of birth in 1861. In his 1900 marriage record John is recorded as being 40 years old, also placing his year of birth in 1860. The marriage record shows his father was Timothy Griffin. Civil registration marriage records unfortunately do not give the names of the mothers of the bride and groom.

Civil registration of birth, marriage, and death records for all religious denominations in Ireland were not recorded until 1864. Before 1864 you need to look for a person’s church baptism record for a primary source.

I initially looked for a baptism transcription for John at the Find My Past (FMP) website. I concentrated on seeing if he was baptized in the area around Knockperry and Garyduff. The Catholic Parish in this area of South Tipperary is the parish of Newcastle, which crosses over the border into County Waterford, and includes the Our Lady of St. Lawrence Church in Fourmilewater.

I found what I believe is the FMP baptism transcription for “Johannam”
Griffin, showing he was baptized in the Newcastle Catholic Parish in April of 1862. The day in April is not recorded, likely because of difficulty deciphering the original baptism register by the FMP transcriber.

First names in the baptism are recorded in Latin.

The transcription further shows that Johannam’s father is “Timottei” Griffin, and that his mother is Brigida Dooney. You can access the baptism transcription after establishing a free account with FMP:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6396488

Attached to the FMP transcription is a link that takes you to a copy of the original Newcastle baptism register held by the National Library of Ireland, where John Griffin’s birth is recorded.

I found the original baptism record for John Griffin, which is attached to this reply. The original baptism record gives further information, showing that John and his parents were living in Knockperry at the time of the baptism. Also, you’ll see that the first name of John’s father is spelled “Timothei,” rather than “Timottei.” In addition, the maiden name of Timothy’s mother Bridget does not look like Dooney, but “Dorney.”

John’s godparents are Patritio (Patrrick) Colebert and Maria Griffin. Maria may be Timothy’s sister.

The name of the church where the baptism took place is not recorded in the transcription, or a copy of the original baptism register, but it is likely the Our Lady of St. Lawrence Church in Fourmilewater. Google Maps shows that Knockperry, Tipperary, is 2.3 miles southwest of the church in Fourmilewater, Waterford, by the shortest route: https://tinyurl.com/bddkx5y9

MORE GRIFFIN BAPTISMS

I found the FMP Newcastle Catholic Parish baptism transcriptions for seven more children of Timothy Griffin and Bridget Dorney/Dooney?

The names and years of baptisms for these children are listed below. I’ve also included John in the list so that you can see the full chronology of all 8 baptisms:

Jeremina, 1853
Michaelem, 1855
Patritium, 1860
Johannam, 1862
Gulielmum (William), 1864
Timotheum, 1866
Timotheum, 1868
Edmundum, 1872
----

There are two baptisms for Timothy Griffin, which means the Timothy baptized in 1866 had died and that his parents named another child after him in 1868.

Four of the baptisms took place after 1863, which means there should be civil registration birth records for them at the irishgenealogy.ie website if one of the parents had reported the birth to the district registrar.

BAPTISM OF JEREMINA GRIFFIN

The first name of this child could be an error for the name Jeremiah, or maybe Jemima. The baptism took place in the Newcastle Catholic Parish on 20 July 1853. The maiden name of the child’s mother is transcribed as “Dooney.” See the transcription: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5196188

A copy of the original baptism record is attached to this reply.
The original baptism really does not clear up what the first name of the child was because of the handwriting. The godparents are Daniel Colbert and Ellena Colbert.

Patrick “Colebert” was John Griffin’s godfather when John was baptized in April of1862. This is an indication that the Griffins or Doony/Dorney families, and the Colberts, may have been related.

BAPTISM OF MICHAELEM GRIFFIN

Michael was baptized in December of 1855. No day in December is transcribed, nor is the maiden name of Michael’s mother Brigida: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5129287

A copy of the original baptism for Michael, attached to this reply, is the last entry in the register. It looks like he was baptized on 30 December 1855. His mother’s maiden name is in shadow, and therefore illegible. The name of Michael’s godfather is Jacobum (James) Keating. The first name of Michael’s godmother is Maria, but I couldn’t make out what her last name was.

BAPTISM OF PATRITIUM “GLIFFIN”

Patrick was baptized in May of 1860, according to the FMP transcription, which also shows that his mother’s maiden name is Dorney. His surname is transcribed as “Gliffin.”:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6762573

The attached copy of Patrick’s original baptism record shows his godparents were Thomas Griffin and Brigida Ryan. The name of the priest who baptized Patrick was O. Walshe.

JOHANNAM GRIFFIN WAS BAPTIZED AFTER PATRICK

BAPTISM OF GULIELMUM (WILLIAM) “GUPPY”

William Griffin was baptized on 3 March 1864. His surname is transcribed as “Guppy” by FMP transcribers.

His mother’s maiden name is transcribed as Downey:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6829636

The attached baptism for William spans two pages of the baptism register. The left-hand page gives the name of the child and parents, though the mother Brigida’s maiden name is recorded on the right-hand page. William’s last name does not look like Guppy, but looks like Griffin. The right-hand page also shows that William and his parents were living in Knockperry at the time of the baptism. William’s godparents are Michael Toomy and Brigida Lonergan.

You may want to enlarge the two-page baptism register for better viewing.

BAPTISM OF THE FIRST-BORN TIMOTHEUM “GRIFFITH”

Timothy was baptized on 18 February 1866. In this transcription his last name is spelled Griffith. His mother Briga’s maiden name is transcribed as Dorney:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5975176

A copy of the original baptism record Attached to this reply, shows on the right-hand page that Timothy and his parents were living in Knockperry at the time of the baptism. The godparents are Pat Griffith and Maria Colbert. The name of the priest who baptized Timothy was Thos Burke, R.C.C. The initials R.C.C. stand for Roman Catholic Curate.

There may be a civil registration death record for the Timothy Griffin baptized in 1866. But, the irishgenealogy.ie website has not imaged death records before 1871, which means you would have to send away to the General Register Office (GRO) in Ireland, to see if there is a death record for him. But you may not have time to receive a copy of his death certificate before leaving for Ireland in late July.

BAPTISM OF THE SECOND-BORN TIMOTHEUM “GRIFFITH”

Timothy was baptized on 22 September 1868. Once again his surname is recorded as “Griffith.” His mother Brigida’s maiden name in this case was transcribed as “Tracy.” See the FMP transcription:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5892906

A copy of Timothy’s original baptism is attached. On the right-hand page you’ll see Brigida’s maiden name. While it could be thought to be Tracy, it is actually “Dorny.” The right-hand page also shows that Timothy and his parents were living in Knockperry at the time of the baptism. The godfather is Patrick Dorny. The first name of the godmother is Catherina. Her last name looks like Hennessy. The last name of the priest who baptized Timothy, was Gorman.

BAPTISM OF EDMUNDUM “GRIFFITH”

Edmund was baptized on 12 November 1872, according to the FMP transcription. His last name is transcribed as “Griffith,” while his mother’s maiden name is transcribed as Dorney:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4809189

The right-hand page of the original baptism register attached to this reply, shows that Timothy and his parents were living in Knockperry. Timothy’s godparents were Richard Lonergan and Maria Griffith. The last name of the priest who baptized Edmund, was Gorman.

THE MARRIAGE OF TIMOTHEUM GRIFFIN AND BRIGIDAM DOONEY

I was hoping the church marriage record would clear up whether or not Bridget’s maiden name was Dooney, or Dorney. I suspect it was Dorney, but because of the handwritten parish registers, it is difficult to know with complete certainty.

Timothy and Bridget were married in the Newcastle Catholic Parish on 20 July 1853, according to the FMP transcription. Bridget’s maiden name is transcribed as Dooney. See the FMP marriage transcription:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F1115408%2F1

A copy of the original marriage record attached to this reply shows that the first name of one of the witnesses to the marriage was James. His last names looks like “Kerting,” but I believe it is actually “Keating.” The second witness is Catherina Griffin, who may have been Timothy’s sister.

I knew I had seen the date of 20 July 1853 before, and so went back to the Griffin baptism records and saw that Timothy and Bridget’s child “Jeremina,” was also baptized on 20 July 1853. This is an indication that the child was born before the marriage of the parents. This also indicates the child would have been born out of wedlock, but then baptized on the same day of the parent’s marriage to give the birth legitimacy. I don’t recall a situation like this in researching Irish baptism and marriage records, where a child was baptized on the same day the parents were married.

Kathleen, as you can see this reply is getting lengthy, and so I’ll close here. But I’ll be sending a second reply sometime this week or early next week with additional records, beginning with the civil registration birth records of four of Timothy and Bridget Griffin’s children, and any other additional information I can find about your ancestors, before you leave for Ireland.

With Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan

SOURCES

Irish Genealogy
National Archives of Ireland: 1901 and 1911 Census
Google Maps
Google Street Views
National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland
Find My Past (FMP)

Gretting Mr. Dave Boylan,

Your message and research is outstanding. I saw it late yesterday so I reached out to my three siblings and my mother last night by a Zoom call to discuss the information and discoveries. We are so appreciative and can't wait to look through the links in depth.

I have some obligations today so I am not able to write the reply I was hoping to write so when I get home this evening I will be sure to respond in length. I just couldn't let the day go by with out letting you know how appreciate and grateful we are for your efforts. 

Have a wonderful day! 

Kate 

Hello Kate,

I just found your reply as I was working on your O'Neill side of the family. I really appreciate your having taking the time out of your busy schedule to write back.

I hope to complete the research by this coming weekend, though I am finding more information than I thought I would, and so I may not send the next reply with this information until sometime this week. You have a very interesting genealogy, and I promise I will find as many records as possible about your Irish ancestors, as if they were my own.

Many thanks again Kate.

With Best Wishes,

Dave

P.S. Are there twins in your family?

My family was from miltown next to Cullen in Tipperary county.Bartholomew Griffin married Honora Ryan.Have you had your dan tested? If so placing it on Gedmatch can open up chances for you to find relatives who may have more info on your family.My gedmatch # is h387854 .

Hi Chip,

Thank you for adding this information. We have done our Ancestry DNA. We definitely need to do some searching on there to see what we can find. I appreciate you giving me the Gedmatch #. I am not familiar with that but I will do some research. (I just looked it up.) Once my family accesses the information we will know more and then will be happy to share with you as well. 

Thank you again,

Kate 

Attached Files

Hi again, Dave! 

I appreciate your earlier reply. I am having a hard time pulling myself away from the computer with all of this great research. That is fantastic that you have learned even more. 

I do have some information that my mother shared with me that I thought might be of interest to you or helpful to you as you are searching on your end. 

Please forgive me in advance if I am not clear on some of the items I am going to share or if I am too long winded. It is all very confusing and exciting at the same time. 

Let me start by answering your question about twins. There are twins in the family. My mother, Catherine Louise "Griffin" Newland's father (James Francis Griffin born in the Untied States) had twin brothers, Frederick and Edward. These three boys are Michael Griffin's sons (he had 10 children all born in America. He is the one who immigrated to America in 1858 according to our records. It has been difficult to find any birth records or baptism records for him and his 3 brothers who left for America at the same time in 1858. I am sure we just need to spend more time searching the different databases. Also, there are a set of twins on my Aunt Mary's side. My cousin had twin girls. I guess it does run in the family.

(I just went back and reread my original post and realize that you and others will be seeing this new information for the first time.)

I will attach a typed sheet below that will probably be helpful. It is titled "Michael Griffin Ancestry Notes as Related to Catherine Griffin Newland." ( She is my mom, who will be turning 87 in August. Our hopes are to find relatives and information about her great grandparents while in Ireland (or before we go...thanks to you and others who might share with us). What an amazing birthday gift that would be! The top half of that paper lists what we know about Michael Griffin. He married Catherine (Kate or Katie) Murray Griffin in America. We know her parents are Thomas Murray and Mary Hart Murray. You will see Thomas Murray is from County Clare and Mary Hart is from Bunmahon, County Waterford. We hope to find more information regarding this side of the family also. My mom does not have any information about her great grandparents on the Griffin side.

A little background on why we think Johnny Griffin, of Knockperry, Newcastle is a relative as well as the ancestors you have found. He is the Griffin in the above obituary I originally posted on June 27th. We visited with him in 2004 and several things connected with us regarding family information we were sharing although not for certain. My mom heard from a woman named, Edie Cox from Decatur, Illinois. She had also visited Johnny Griffin so when she wrote to my mom in June of 2006, she thought maybe they were related. Unfortunately my mother did not reach out to Edie Cox and she just passed away a few months ago. My sister is trying to connect with a family member to see if she continued her research. Fingers crossed! We do have a connection to Illinois as you will see in the papers I am attaching. Edie's great grandparents are the Timothy and Bridget you mention in your research. We are not exactly sure where the connection is between Edie's ancestors and ours but we think it's there. We just can't pinpoint it! Maybe you will be able to shed some light on it for us. I am also attaching forms that Edie filled out about her ancestry. 

Do you think it's possible that Timothy Griffin had a brother and that brother's sons are the ones who left for America? Those sons would be Michael and his three brothers: James, William and Edward. They are mentioned on the second page of the typed notes. My Aunt Mary met Timothy Griffin (the one on the gravestone) who said he remembers his uncles went to America. I can only imagine the number of people who could say the same thing about their family. Nonetheless, we're hopeful! We can't help but to think that there would be birth records and/or baptism records for those four sons in Ireland They were teenagers when they traveled to America. Apparently they went to New York. I am assuming that would be Castle Garden port? My brother lives in the Washington DC area so I am hoping he will go to the National Archives to search the microfilm to find the passenger manifest for 1858. There is quite a discrepancy in Michael Griffin's birthdate. We have seen it as 1833, 1836, 1839, and 1845. My mom said his tombstone says 1845 which would match up to his marriage certificate. I am also attaching that. My mom also remembers her father (James Francis) saying that his dad (Michael Griffin) was 14 when he came to America. (Please note the birthdate on our typed notes say 1836.) 

My mom does have pictures of each of the 4 brothers with their families if you think that would be helpful to share. I am attaching three obituaries that mention Ireland and names. Lastly, there is a picture and the writing that is on the back of that picture. The picture was sent to my mom by Edie Cox. I sure hope we are able to connect with her family. 

I hope this information is helpful. My family can not express our gratitude enough for all of the research you are doing, Dave. Thank you! 

All the best,

Kate  (I will have to change the type of file for the 3 obits and the 1 marriage certificate so I will post them later.)

Attached Files

Dave,

I was able to convert the 3 obituaries and the marriage license to jpegs. I will attach them. The obituaries are from newspaper clippings so not the best quality.

I hope you had a nice day!
Kate

Hello Kate,

You can tell you have done a great deal of research into your Irish genealogy with all the records you’ve found and have sent in your previous communications. But, I have to admit that in going over all the information and attachments in your previous replies, I just get overwhelmed and confused, because there are just too many names and dates to keep track of.

I’ve been working on your O’Neil side of the family for the past few days but am not sure if you are interested in these records, mostly from the 19th century. The O’Neil records also include some birth and death records for the Griffin family, again from the 19th century. I can send these to you if you are interested, but it may take a few more days to complete the research.

I’ll wait to hear back from you before sending any more records.

Thanks Kate,

Dave

Hello Dave,

Thank you for your reply. I apologize for all of the confusion. I tried to make sense of it all and be as clear as possible. It is overwhelming and difficult to say in writing. We would love any records you would be able to share about the O'Neil side of the family. That's exciting it has birth and death records about the Griffins too. 

Thank you! Again, I apologize for my overwhelming response.

All the best!

Kate

 

No apology necessary Kate. It is admirable to be as enthusiastic about your family history as you are. I wish more people were. I also have to mention that in many cases people do not respond to information they've received from volunteers at Ireland Reaching. You respond every time, which shows you are serious about finding more information about your ancestors.

Speaking about being overwhelmed, I hope I am not overwhelming you with the records that have been found to date concerning the Griffin and related ancestors. But, as you will be traveling to Ireland very soon, I want to get as much information to you as possible before you leave.

The second reply concerning the O'Neil family is already at 11 pages. I'll be working on the O'Neil genealogy all day today (Sunday) and am not sure how many more records will be found, as I want to go back as far as possible in the 19th century looking for church baptism and marriage records pertaining to this line of your ancestry. 

I'll get these records to you as soon as possible. Hopefully you'll have enough time to go through them before you leave for Ireland this month. If you don't have enough time to go through them, it will give you a reason to make another trip to Ireland sometime in the future.

Thanks Kate,

Dave

 

Attached Files

CONTINUED FROM THE FIRST REPLY

Hello Kate,

As mentioned in a previous reply four of Timothy and Bridget Griffin’s children were born after 1863, which means there should be civil registration records for them if the births were reported to the registrar by one of the parents, or by the person who assisted with the births, such as a female relative or a midwife. The children born after 1863 were William, Timothy, Timothy, and Edumund.

Births record the maiden name of the child’s mother, and so I was particularly interested in seeing if Bridget’s maiden name was Dooney, or Dorney/Dorny/Darney in the birth records.

I looked for the Griffin births at the irishgenealogy.ie website and located three of the four children. I didn’t find the second-born Timothy Griffin in the year 1868 however, but did uncover a surprise, as you’ll see later.

BIRTH OF WILLIAM GRIFFIN

1864 would have been a leap year, as William was born in Knockperry, County Tipperary on 29 February of that year. His father is Timothy Griffin, a “Farmer” living in Knockperry. His mother is Bridget Griffin, formerly Dorney. Timothy reported the birth to the registrar, Pierce B. Stafford, who recorded the birth in the Clogheen Registration District on 8 March of 1864. William’s birth is number 34 in the register:
https://tinyurl.com/3pcfu2yk

BIRTH OF TIMOTHY GRIFFIN

Timothy was born in Knockperry, Newcastle, on what looks like 14 September 1866. His father is Timothy Griffin, a “Farmer” living in Knockperry. His mother is Bridget Griffin, formerly Dorney. You can see by the handwriting in this birth record how someone would confuse her maiden name with Dorney. Timothy’s father reported the birth to the registrar, P.B. Stafford, who recorded the birth in the Clogheen Registration District on 19 February, 1866. Timothy’s birth is the last entry in the register at number 407: https://tinyurl.com/ynfvepsa

BIRTH OF THOMAS GRIFFIN

I didn’t uncover the birth for the second-born Timothy Griffin. But after a bit more research I found that the first name of the child born in 1868 was recorded as Thomas, rather than as Timothy. He was born in Knockperry, Newcastle, on 23 September 1868. His father is Timothy Griffin, a “Farmer” residing in Knockperry. Thomas’s mother is Bridget Griffin, formerly “Dareny.” The registrar, P.B. Stafford recorded the birth in the Clogheen registration district on 26 September 1868. Thomas’s birth is number 39 in the register: https://tinyurl.com/yc7ufd7w

Because the baptism record conflicts with the birth record, I don’t know if this child’s first name was Timothy or Thomas.

BIRTH OF EDMOND GRIFFIN

Edmond was born in Knockperry, Newcastle, on 11 November 1872. His father Timothy is a “Labourer” residing in Knockperry. His mother is Bridget Griffin, formerly Dorney. Timothy reported the birth to P.B. Stafford, who recorded the birth in the Clogheen Registration District on November 20, 1872. Edmond’s birth is number 189 in the register: https://tinyurl.com/7tetpb3n

DEATH OF EDMOND GRIFFIN

There are actually two death records for Edmond. One is a non-certified copy of his death. The other is a certified copy of his death. In the non-certified death record the registrar did not record Edmond’s last name, though he did record that Edmond’s father was Timothy Griffin.

Edmond, a “Small Farmer’s Son,” died in Knockperry, Newcastle, on 26 February 1873 at the age of what looks like 4 months. The cause of death was “Declining from birth.” A note also states, “Not certified. No Med attn,” which means the death was not certified, and that “No Medical Attendant,” was present at the death.

Edmond’s father Timothy, was present at the death and reported the death to the registrar, P.B. Stafford, who recorded the death in the Clogheen registration district on February 28, 1873. Edmond’s death is the last entry in the register at number 45: https://tinyurl.com/47wrdhhy

Here is the certified copy of Edmond’s death record, with a note from P.B. Stafford, which states that Edward’s last name in Col. 3 of the register should read Griffin: https://tinyurl.com/cyzh4hbr

Moving forward in time I looked for Timothy and Bridget Griffin in the 1901 census, but didn’t find them living in Knockperry and could not identify them living anywhere else in County Tipperary or nearby County Waterford.

Timothy and Bridget either had emigrated from Ireland, or were deceased by 1901. The other option is I failed to locate them in the 1901 census.

I looked for Timothy and Bridget’s death at the irishgenealogy.ie website and found Bridget’s death but not Timothy’s. Bridget died in Knockperry on 29 January 1899 at the age of 60. She had been a “Labourer’s Wife.” The cause of death was “Bronchitis, probably 2 days.” The person who was present at her death and who reported her death to the registrar was John Griffin, of Knockperry. John’s relation to Bridget is not recorded, but I believe he would have been her son. John signed the death register with “his x mark.” The registrar, J. Power, recorded Bridget’s death in the Clogheen registration district on February 14, 1899. Bridget’s death is number 18 in the register: https://tinyurl.com/5t37y9e5

I have to question Bridget’s age of 60 when she died in 1899. If 60 years old when she died in 1899, she would have been born circa 1839, which means she would have been 14 years old when she married Timothy Griffin in 1853. I don’t believe the Catholic Church would have allowed a girl of 14 to marry at that young age, except maybe under a dispensation. Then too, would a dispensation be granted by the church for a child, Jeremina Griffin, who was baptized the same day his or her parents were married on 20 July 1853? I don’t know the answer to that question. But the marriage record for Timothy and Bridget does not show any dispensation given.

NOTE: The above information about Bridget Griffin is eerily similar to Mary Hart Murray’s genealogy, where Mary was born in 1839, and where she married Thomas Murray when she was 14 years old in 1853.
END OF NOTE

I now wanted to see how far back in time the Newcastle Catholic Parish registers of baptisms and marriages are available to access at the National Library of Ireland. The reason for this is I wanted to see if I could identify the individual baptism records for Timothy Griffin and Bridget Dorney.

The National Library of Ireland shows Newcastle Catholic baptisms are available from 1 July 1814 to 16 March 1881, but there are some gaps in the early baptism registers.

Marriages are available from 7 January 1822 to 19 February 1881. There are gaps in the marriage registers as well. To see the availability of the Newcastle Catholic registers at the National Library of Ireland, and for a map of the Newcastle Catholic Parish and nearby Catholic parishes, go to: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1107

On the map you’ll see a dotted line which shows the Newcastle Parish located in both County Tipperary and County Waterford

Having been married in 1853, I suspect that Timothy and Bridget were born and baptized in the 1820s, up to the mid-1830s. I looked for their individual baptisms in the Newcastle Catholic Parish from 1820 to 1835 at the FMP website.

I didn’t find a baptism record for a Timothy Griffin from 1820 to 1835.
But, I did uncover a record for a “Biddy” Dorney, who was baptized in the Newcastle Catholic Parish on 3 December 1831. Biddy is a nickname for Bridget. Her father is Jacobi (James) Dorney. Her mother is Kitty Connelly. Kitty is a nickname for Catherine. See the FMP transcription:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4440690

A copy of the original baptism record is attached to this reply. Biddy’s last name is spelled “Dorny,” rather than Dorney, as found in the FMP transcription. The godparents are William Murry and Jony Noonan.

I can’t be sure this Biddy Dorney is your ancestor, as I didn’t know the names of her parents before looking for her baptism. But if she is your ancestor, she would have been 22 years old when she married Timothy Griffin in 1853.

Also, if this is the baptism record for the Bridget Griffin who had died in 1899, she would have been 68 years old at the time she died, rather than 60 years old.

BIRTH RECORD OF MARY O’NEIL

In the previous reply you saw that 21 year old Mary O’Neill and 40 year old John Griffin were married in the Roman Catholic Chapel of Fourmilewater (County Waterford), on 27 February 1900. The marriage record shows that Mary was from “Doonagheeha” and that her father was Patrick O’Neill, who was employed as a “Labourer.”

I don’t know however if her age of 21 was accurate, as ages in marriage records, like census records, are not always accurate.

But, based on the information from the marriage record I looked for Mary’s civil registration birth record for the year 1879, though if her birthday fell after 27 February, she would have turned 22 years old, placing her year of birth in 1878.

I found what may be Mary’s civil registration birth record at the irishgenealogy.ie website. She was born in Doonagaha, Newcastle, on 15 June 1878. Her father is Patrick O’Neill, a farmer living in Doonagaha. Her mother is Ellen O’Neill, formerly Norris. Patrick, who signed the birth register with “his x mark,” reported the birth to the registrar, P.B. Stafford, who recorded the birth in the Clogheen Registration District on July 24, 1878. Mary’s birth is the number 121 in the register: https://tinyurl.com/2p8fy987

Doonagaha would be the same town you saw in the last reply spelled, “Doonageeha” and “Doonagheeha.”

Curiously enough I didn’t find a baptism transcription for Mary at the FMP website. I also checked the Newcastle Catholic Parish registers for June of 1878 to see if FMP may have missed transcribing the baptism, but found they hadn’t in looking through a copy of the original baptism register.

But, I did find the FMP transcription for Patritium Neal, who was baptized on 19 June 1878. His parents were Patritu Neal and Ellena Norris, and so indications are that Mary had a twin brother named Patrick. See FMP transcription at: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5786848

Attached is a copy of Patrick’s original baptism record. The right-hand page shows the residence of the family, which looks like, “Douagah.” This may be the way the priest spelled Doonageeha. Patrick’s godparents are Gulielmo (William) Dunne, and what looks like Mena O’Donnell.

Patrick’s civil registration birth record was not recorded with Mary’s on 15 June 1878, or even after that.

THE CHURCH MARRIAGE OF PATRITIUM O’NEIL AND ELLENAM NORRIS

The transcription from FMP shows that Patrick and Ellen were married in the Newcastle Catholic Parish on 9 February 1873. The transcription further shows that the address of the groom and bride was “Silaheen.”
The transcription can be found at: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F1349291%2F1

A copy of the original marriage record is attached to this reply, and shows that the witnesses to the marriage were David Fennessy and Catherina Mulcahy. The Parish Priest, Father T. O’Meara, had married Patrick and Ellen. There also seems to be another marriage record on the same day squeezed in the marriage of Patrick and Ellen. This marriage looks to be between a groom named Norris and a bride named Sweeny, also of Silaheen. The groom without a first name recorded in the register, may have been Ellen’s brother.

THE CIVIL REGISTRATION MARRIAGE OF PATRICK O’NEIL AND ELLEN NORRIS

The 1873 civil marriage record shows that Patrick O’Neil and Ellen Norris, both of “full age,” were married in the Roman Catholic Chapel of Fourmilewater. This record however, shows that Patrick was from Doonagheeha, and that Ellen was from Silaheen.

The marriage record also shows that Patrick’s father was John O’Neil, a “Labourer,” and that Ellen’s father was also a “Labourer” named William Norris, who was “deceased” at the time of the marriage. The marriage record can be found at: https://tinyurl.com/a7h25fyy

You can see that the witnesses signed the marriage register with their “marks,” witnessed by Father Thomas O’Meara. Patrick and Ellen also signed the marriage register with their marks.

As mentioned in the previous reply, the Catholic Church in Fourmilewater is Our Lady of St. Lawrence Church. This is where Patrick and Ellen were married.

A Google Map shows the locations of Doonageeha in County Tipperary, and Fourmilewater and Silaheen in County Waterford: https://tinyurl.com/4hex9x5d

Here are two Google Street Views of Silaheen, County Waterford: https://tinyurl.com/33pjsd4u and https://tinyurl.com/bdds35ys

Because Patrick and Ellen were married in 1873, I figured they may have had two or possibly three children before their daughter Mary was born on 15 June 1878.

I looked for the baptisms of any other children at the FMP website for the Catholic Parish of Newcastle. I actually did uncover three more baptisms for Neal/Neill children. As was customary for this time period, the Newcastle Catholic Parish recorded first names in the Latin form.

The first child of Patrick and Ellen to be baptized was Mariam. Mariam is the Latin for Mary, which means this child had died sometime before the second child Mary was born in 1878.

BAPTISM OF MARIAM NIEL

Mariam was baptized on 23 November 1873. See the FMP transcription: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4441595

A copy of the original baptism register is attached to this reply. The right-hand register page shows that Mary and her parents were living in Doonageeha at the time of the baptism. Mary’s godparents are Michaele Norris and Ellena Norris.

BAPTISM OF JOANNAM (JOHN) NEAL

Joannam Neal was baptized on 7 February 1875 according to the FMP transcription: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4441641

The right-hand page of the original baptism record, attached, shows John and his parents were living in “Donegeach,” which of course would be Donageeha. John’s godparents are Ricardo (Richard) Dunne and Judith Dunne. The name of the priest who baptized John looks like Thomas Finn.

BAPTISM OF GULIELMUM (WILLIAM) NEILL

The FMP transcription shows that Gulielmum was baptized on 8 October 1876: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4441699

The right-hand page of the baptism register shows the Neill family were living in Doonageeha. William’s godparents are Patritio Norris and Anastatia Hally. The priest who baptized William was R. O’Gorman. See the attachment.

Kate, the Family Group Sheet you attached to a previous reply, (P.DorneyandM.Hollyjpeg_2558.jpg (180.01 KB) shows the family of Patrick Dorney and Mary Hally. This document shows that Patrick and Mary had 10 children.

The Dorney and Hally individuals you see in this reply were probably related to Patrick Dorney and Mary Hally in the Family Group Sheet.

Because the three O’Neil children were born after 1864, I next looked for their civil registration birth records at the irishgenealogy.ie website.

When I found the birth record for the first-born Mary Neil, I also uncovered two surprises. Mary was born in a place called either Montonk, or Montauk, Newcastle, on 15 November 1873.

Just under Mary’s birth record is the birth record for a Neil girl whose first name is not recorded. This child was also born in Montonk/Montauk on 15 November 1873. The parents of both children are Patrick Neil, a farmer living in what looks like Montauk, and Ellen Neil, formerly Norris. A lady named Mary Neil was present at the births and reported the births to the registrar, Pierce B. Stafford. He recorded the births in the Clogheen Registration District on December 13, 1873. The births are numbers 386 and 387 in the register: https://tinyurl.com/wsbj7jkp

I next uncovered a confusing death record for a child with no last name, and no first name who died on 15 November 1873 in Montonk/Montauk, Newcastle, which is the same day and same place as the birth record for Mary Neil and the unnamed child named Neil.

The death record shows child’s first name of Patrick is crossed through, but not replaced by another first name. The child’s gender however, is recorded as “female,” and “spinster,” which also denotes a female child. The age of the child looks like 5 minutes, and her occupation as “Farmer’s Child.” The cause of death was “Exhaustion from birth.” The person who reported the death to the registrar was either Margaret or Mary Neil. The registrar named Stafford, recorded the death in the Clogheen Registration District on December 13, 1873. The death is number 108 in the register: https://tinyurl.com/5n8d2sy2

I then found a correction to the death record, which does record the last name of the child in a side-note that reads, “In No. 108 Col. ? for Patrick Neal – Neil as per deposition made before the presiding Justices at Ardfinnan Petty Sessions 9th day of March 1877. P.B. Stafford Registrar 9/3/77.” See the corrected death record at: https://tinyurl.com/3h2twvcj

You can see in the corrected death record that the child’s age was 5 minutes old at the time of death.

This correction was recorded almost three years after the Neil child was born and died in November of 1873. This may refer to the death of the first-born Mary Neil, but that is just a guess. How this came to the attention of the presiding justices in 1877 is a mystery.

After finding these birth and death records I looked for Montonk or Montauk at Google Maps and Bing Maps, and also did a general search for the name of the town on the net, but did not find it. I then accessed Ordnance Survey Maps of Tipperary from the 1829 to 1841 time period, and found that there are two alternate names for the town. These are Bonatouk and Monatouk. The Ordnance Survey Map, from the GeoHive website, is attached to this reply.

From the placenames on the Ordnance Survey Map, I looked for either name on Google Maps, and found that Bonatouk in County Waterford is 3.7 miles southeast of Donagheeha in County Tipperary: https://tinyurl.com/5e69z4ef

This Google Street View shows a road just west of Bonatouk: https://tinyurl.com/526fp7c8

THE BIRTH OF JOHN NEIL

John Neil was born in Doonageeha, Newcastle, on February 10, 1875. His father Patrick is a “Small Farmer” living in Doonaheeha. His mother is Ellen Neil, formerly Norris. The registrar, P.B. Stafford, recorded the birth in the Clogheen Registration District on March 18, 1875. John’s birth is number 107 in the register: https://tinyurl.com/4mak9c3s

THE BIRTH OF WILLIAM NEIL

William was born in Doonagheeha, Newcastle, on October 11, 1876. His father Patrick was a “Small Farmer” living in Doonagheeha. William’s mother is Ellen Neil, formerly Norris. Ellen reported the birth to P.B. Stafford, who recorded the birth in the Clogheen Registration District on 13 November 1876. The birth is number 376 in the register: https://tinyurl.com/mr423mt8

Patrick O’Neil and Ellen Norris were married in 1873. The marriage record shows that Patrick’s father was John O’Neil and that Ellen’s father was William Norris. Their individual ages in the marriage record are not recorded, except to say they were of “full age,” meaning 21 years of age or older.

This means it’s possible they could have been born sometime in the 1830s, 1840s, or the early 1850s.

I looked for Patrick’s baptism in the Newcastle Catholic Parish but didn’t find it. But I did uncovered the baptism record for an Ellen Norris, though because I didn’t know the name of Ellen’s mother beforehand, I don’t know if this is the Ellen Norris in your line. First names in the baptism record are in the Latin form.

BAPTISM OF ELLENAM NORRIS

The baptism transcription from the FMP website shows that Ellenam Norris was baptized on 25 June 1834. Her father is Gulielmi Norris. Her mother is Honora English:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5974911

A copy of the original baptism record for Ellen, attached to this reply, is a challenge to read. Her mother Honora’s maiden name does not look like English, but looks like the name is Coughlin, or a variant thereof.
The godfather is Jacobus (James) Norris. The first name of Ellen’s godmother looks like it could be Maria, though I’m not sure of that. I couldn’t tell what the godmother’s last name was. The image seems to be a bit out of focus and dark in places. The baptism doesn’t appear to record where Ellen and her parents were living at the time of the baptism.

If this baptism refers to the Ellen Norris who married Timothy O’Neil on February 9, 1873, she would have been 39 years old at the time of marriage, which also means she would have been 44 years old when her and Timothy’s second-born daughter Mary was born in 1878.

To see if I could clarify the maiden name of Ellen’s mother, I looked for the FMP Newcastle Catholic Parish marriage transcription for Gulielmi Norris and Honora. I found the marriage transcription showing that Gulielmum Norris and Honoram Coughlin were married on 18 April 1834:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F1044889%2F1

The attached copy of the marriage record shows the witnesses to the marriage were Jacobus Moroney and Anastatia Kelly.

William and Honora’s daughter Ellen was baptized on 25 June 1834. Her parents were married on 18 April 1834. This is an indication that William and Honora married when the did so that their daughter would not be born out of wedlock.

On that note I’ll close here Kate. I hope you have time to go through all these records before you leave for Ireland. If you are renting a car in Ireland, the Google Map coming up shows the townlands where your ancestors had lived or worshipped. From north to south on the map are Sillaheens; Fourmilewater, where the Our Lady of St. Lawrence Church is located; Knockperry; Garryduff; Doonageeha; and Monatouk, also known as Bonatouk: https://tinyurl.com/3fp5an2c

With Kind Regards,

Dave

SOURCES

irishgenealogy.ie
Attachment: Michael Griffin Ancestry Notes As Related To Catherine Griffin Newland
National Library of Ireland
Find My Past
Attachment: Family Group Sheet (P.DorneyandM.Hollyjpeg_2558.jpg (180.01 KB)
GeoHive: Ordnance Survey Maps

Hi Dave,

I have a feeling I am going to make more trips to Ireland in the future. It's so beautiful there! Are you from Ireland? :)

Your research and understanding is just amazing! The information I have shared is really only a small amount of information passed down through the family about the four brothers who came to America. I am trying really hard to look at passenger manifest records to find the four brothers. I am hoping to find information in the records that maybe they had to share before traveling on the ship. For example, who their parents were, if they had siblings they were leaving behind, and where they are from in Ireland. I am also trying to find their birth and baptismal information. The script writing and age of the documents makes it difficult to read at times.

I have been using Ancestry. My four siblings and mom did our DNA but aren't too familiar with the resources through Ancestry yet. I have used some of the links from you as well.

I am very excited to see the information you are finding. I eagerly await the many, many pages. Ha! It's merely impossible to keep it short. You are not overwhelming me at all. I am so sorry to hear that some people do not respond or show their appreciation. I can't imagine! My entire family is blown away by the research, care and concern you have put into this endeavor. We can't thank you enough!

Talk soon!
Kate

Wow, Dave! I refreshed my page and see your AMAZING results! I hope you are getting to enjoy your time and not spending all waking hours on this. 

THANK YOU! I better get busy reading!!!!! Kate

Hi Kate,

Thank you for your kind words and for writing back so quickly. It’s very much appreciated. I don’t mind spending time finding records for family historians like yourself who care about their Irish ancestry. It is an admirable pursuit!

I have to ask a question before you leave for Ireland... Who is the one person whose birth, marriage, or death record you, or your mom, are especially looking for? I would need their names, year of birth or approximate year of birth if known, place of birth, and of course the names of the parents, especially the mother’s maiden name.

Records I won’t be able to obtain online are birth records after 1922. Ireland has a 100 year rule pertaining to privacy about a person’s birth record if the birth took place less than 100 years ago. I guess that’s because people are living longer these days.

For example, if Johnny Griffin, whose obituary you provided in your first post, was born after 1922, I won’t be able to access his birth record. But, if he had any siblings born up to and including the year 1922, I’ll be able to look for their birth records. If their parents were married before 1911, I may be able to find them in the 1911 census, and also access their civil marriage record.

Also Kate, I forgot to mention in the latest reply that I’ve done some extensive research about Mary Hart who was born in Bunmahon, Waterford in 1839, and who married Thomas Murray in 1853 when she was 14 and he was 55.

I looked for her baptism at the Find My Past website for an 11 year period from 1829 to 1840, but without results.

The Catholic Parish for Bunmahon is called Stradbally. The Stradbally Catholic baptisms are available from the National Library of Ireland from 3 November 1806 to 8 February 1881. Marriages are available from 4 August 1805 to 27 February 1881: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1093

The National Library of Ireland shows that Stradbally Catholic baptisms are extent for all 12 months of 1839.

Is there a record available that shows Mary Hart was from Bunmahon?

Then too, I have to wonder if Mary’s parents, or if the Catholic Church would have allowed such a young girl to marry a man in his 50s. I know people in the 1800s married a lot earlier than they do today, but that seems extreme, even for the 1800s. But, in genealogy, it’s always best to keep an open mind and realize that just about anything is possible.

Thank you again for your quick reply and your kindness.

All the Best,

Dave

Hi Dave,

I am feeling a bit under the weather and it's getting late so I will respond more tomorrow when I am feeling better. I hope to feel better before we travel next week. My family of four will enjoy the coastline and countryside of England before meeting the rest of the family in Ireland.

I will try to write back in the morning, my time.

Thank you,

Kate

No problem at all Kate. It's best to concentrate on getting well before your trip next week. If time is getting short and you can't respond now, that's OK. We could always communicate after you get back from your trip.

Get well, and if I don't hear from you, have a fantastic time in England and Ireland.

Dave

P.S. I forgot to mention that I am in the U.S.

Wow, Dave, I just lost every word I have been typing to you the past two days. So sad!!! I should have typed in Google docs or saved the draft. I am still not feeling well, but I wanted to be sure and get a reply sent to you. It's important! 

My mom, Catherine, is trying to trace the four brothers who came to America in 1858. Or 1860 according to a 1900 US Census. We do not know their parents' names. One of the four brothers is Michael Griffin, my mom's grandfather. His birth dates range from 1833-1845. The 1900 US census has his birth date as 1839. One record I saw online said 1838, his headstone says 1845, and his obituary says 1833. So confusing!!! 

Michael Griffin's obituary also said he was from Newcastle, County Tipperary. This is one of the connections with the Griffin family you have researched. We feel there is a relationship there but we can't see it yet. The obituary went on to say that Michael lived in Yonkers, New York for five years and Chicago, Illinois for seven years before homesteading in Glasco, Kansas in 1870. I haven’t looked at any of the census records yet for Yonkers and Chicago. 

The other three brothers are James, William, and Edward. The only other brother we know anything about is James. His obituary states that he was born September 23, 1839 also of Newcastle, County Tipperary. He also lived in Yonkers, New York for five years and then moved to Chicago, Illinois in 1863, until 1871 when he homesteaded in Delphos, Kansas near his brother Michael’s homestead. 

As for William and Edward, we believe Edward went on to live in New Zealand and William moved to Macon, Illinois. William is the reason Edie Cox reached out to my mom after doing some family research. Her grandfather was William Griffin. Again, there might be a connection to the Griffin family you have researched but we just can’t find these four brothers anywhere in the mix. So, I guess we are hoping to find birth and baptism information on the four brothers that could hopefully lead us to the parents’ names, make connections to the Griffin family you have so thoroughly researched, and any other amazing discoveries. 

Do you have any thoughts on how to research from here? I guess I’m not surprised I got as sick as I did, I have been planning two trips and researching ancestors late into the nights when I should have been sleeping and taking care of myself. I am making a rebound though. :) 

I asked my mom if she has any written record of Mary Hart being from Bunmahon. She and my sister will hopefully look through some of the paperwork she has this weekend. Wow, 14, is such a young age to be married. If I am remembering correctly, you found that also with the Griffin family? The microfilm from the Catholic Church Registry is fascinating to see, very difficult to read, but I do believe I could make out some first names (name of the child) followed by the parents and it looks like the father’s last name is underlined in those records. I could be wrong but it seemed like it. You have found some amazing information, maps, and mysteries too. 

Thank you for being patient with me this week, Dave. Oh, we were hoping you were going to be close to us in Ireland so we could meet you and take you to dinner. 

All the best,

Kate

 

Hi Kate,

Many thanks for your reply. I’m sorry you had to go through so much trouble over the past few days when you’re still not 100%. Maybe the following news will help you get better, quicker.

Because you and your mom are most interested in finding more information about the four Griffin brothers who left Ireland, I concentrated on seeing if I could uncover their baptism records, as well of the baptisms of any siblings they had.

I believe I was successful in this search as I found what I think are the Newcastle Catholic Parish baptism records for the four Griffin brothers, plus the baptisms of two other siblings, as well as the church marriage record for their parents.

But, as you will see there are variations for the last name Griffin (Griffith) and the first name Edward (Edmund) in the records, but these variations are not uncommon in 19th century Irish Catholic baptism records.

The baptisms I found are very strong circumstantial evidence that these are your Griffin family. It is circumstantial evidence because we do not know beforehand the names of their parents. What your records do show however, is that the Griffins are from the Newcastle area of South Tipperary, and this is where the baptisms and marriage took place.

I need to do a bit more research and will be spending Sunday going through the records, and seeing if I can find the townland where the four brothers, their parents, and siblings may have lived.

When are you leaving for Ireland and the UK? It may take another day or two to complete the research.

Thank you for writing back.

Dave

P.S. Have you come across the surname “Nugent,” when you were researching Michael, James, William, and Edward after they left Ireland?

Hello Dave,

This is such amazing and hopeful news!!! Wow! You work wonders!!! I talked to my mom and my sister right away. We are all so excited to see what you have discovered. I completely understand that it's circumstantial. I think you might be right about this news...it cheered my right up. 

Actually, all of your research has been amazing and so interesting. We are still singing your praises and talking about how fortunate we are to have you help us with this ancestry search. I know we took a new path with the four brothers (and now, two parents and two more siblings, fingers crossed) but please know that we are always appreciative of any information you have already found or continue to find on the original Griffins you researched and of course Thomas Murray and Mary Hart, my mom's great grandparents. My mom should be sending me a picture soon that talks about Mary Hart, but not necessarily a civil record. 

Take all the time you need, please! We will not be in Ireland until July 25th. My family leaves this Wednesday for the UK but my husband will have his computer so I will continue to check my posts. :) 

As for the surname "Nugent," my mom thinks it sounds familiar but she just can't place it. She does recall a family from New York coming to visit a couple of times when she was a little girl. She thinks they were related as they visited her dad and the Griffin family in Delphos too. She said she will do a little searching. I can't wait to hear more! 

Thank you, Dave, truly!!! I hope you did not spend your whole day searching.

Talk to you soon!

Kate

 

 

Dave:

Thanks for all your outstanding work assisting Kate with her Griffin family from South Tipperary. I'm going to add this message thread to our "Success story" file.

Kate: Have a great trip to Ireland with your family!

Roger

 

Attached Files

Hi Kate,

The names and years of baptisms in the Newcastle Catholic Parish for the six Griffin/Griffiths bothers I found are below. They are all the sons of Michael Griffin and Maria Nugent. These names originally came from Find My Past transcriptions:

Edm Griffith, 1835
Micham Griffith, 1837
Jacobus Griffith, 1839
Joannem Griffin, 1844
Gulielmum Griffin, 1850
Thoma Griffin Griffin, 1853
----

The first three baptisms with the Griffith surname would be for Edward, Michael, and James. The last three baptisms with the Griffin surname would be for John, William, and Thomas.

THE BAPTISM OF JACOBUS GRIFFITH

I’d like to start with the baptism of Jacobus, as your records show he was born on September 23, 1839. His FMP baptism transcription shows he was baptized in September 1839, though no day in September is recorded in the transcription, which can be accessed at: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4808571

In accessing a copy of James’s original baptism record however, I found that he was actually baptized in October 1839, though I couldn’t tell what day in October the baptism took place. See the attachment.

A copy of the original baptism record can be a challenge to decipher in places. The name of the godfather looks like Patritius Halloran. The godmother is Johanna Fahy.

THE BAPTISM OF EDM GRIFFITH

This would be the baptism for your Edward under the name of Edm, or Edmund. I have to question the transcription stating he was Edm, rather than Edw, as you’ll see a little later. The FMP transcription shows he was baptized on 6 April 1835:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6128527

In looking at a copy of the original baptism record attached to this reply, you can see that the abbreviation for the child’s name could be transcribed as Edm, but I would have transcribed it as Edw. In any case I’ve seen the name Edward and Edmund used interchangeably in Irish records.

THE BAPTISM OF MICHAM GRIFFITH

The FMP transcription shows that Micham was baptized on 12 March 1837:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4808432

The attached copy of the original baptism record shows that Michael’s godparents are Patritius Griffith and Margarita Nugent.

THE BAPTISM OF JOANNAM GRIFFIN

Joannam (John) was baptized on 22 July 1844 according to the FMP transcription:

https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4808812

In a copy of the original baptism for John, you’ll see that just to the write of his mother Maria Nugent’s name, the word, “Knock.” This is not the full name of the townland where the Griffiths were living at the time of the baptism. The rest of the name of the townland goes into the fold of the register which is attached to the spine. This place could be Knockperry.

John’s godfather is Daniele Colebert. The first name of John’s godmother is Helena. Her last name looks like it could be Morrissy.

THE BAPTISM OF GULIELMUM GRIFFIN

The FMP transcription shows that Gulielmum (William) was baptized on 26 May 1850:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5196058

As you’ll see in the attached copy of the original baptism record for William, the handwriting of the priest is almost illegible. I couldn’t make out with certainty what the first name of William’s godfather was. His last name may be Berry. The name of the godmother may be Joannes Colebert. Unfortunately, I could not make out the writing just to the right of the godmother’s name.

THE BAPTISM OF THOMA GRIFFIN

Thoma (Thomas), was baptized in June of 1853 according to the FMP transcription:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5196184

A copy of the original baptism record shows that Thomas’s godparents were Edmundus Hally and Ellena Lonergan.

The Hally name is part of your genealogical record, from your previous attachment: P.DorneyandM.Hollyjpeg_2558.jpg (180.01 KB)

Earlier you saw that William Griffin was baptized in 1850. This means he was baptized during the Great Famine, known in the Irish language as, “An Gorta Mór.” The famine began in 1845, and ended in 1851-1852. This means your mom’s grandfather Michael, who was born in 1837, would have lived through all the years of the famine. He would have been 8 years old when the famine began and 9 to 10 years old when the famine ended. It is estimated that a million people died of hunger and disease during the Great Famine, and another 1 million emigrated to England, the U.S., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

For more information about the Great Famine, see the Wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

THE MARRIAGE OF MICHL GRIFFITH AND MARIA NUGENT

The FMP transcription shows that Michael and Maria were married in the Newcastle Catholic Parish on 24 October 1833: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F1126730%2F1

The attached copy of the original marriage record shows that the witnesses to the marriage were Patricius Griffith and Jacobus Nugent. The name of the priest who married Michael and Maria could be H. or W. Flanagan.

Patricius could have been Michael’s brother. Jacobus could have been Maria’s brother.

Unfortunately, the marriage record does not state where the groom and bride were living when they married.

Only one Griffith/Griffin baptism gives a clue as to where the family were may have been living when the six children were baptized. This is the baptism for John in 1844, which was the year before the Great Famine began. At this time the family may have lived in Knockperry, but may have moved around the area of South Tipperary and County Waterford, looking for work during the Great Famine.

This prompted me to look for Michael or Maria Griffin in an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation, to see if either had been leasing land or a house in the Civil Parish of Newcastle.

Specifically I wanted to see if they were living in Knockperry, Garryduff, or Doonageeha in County Tipperary, or in Sillaheens in County Waterford.

Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for towns within the Civil parish of Newcastle was completed by the year 1852, the last year of the Great Famine.

Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the Ask About Ireland website link at: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

Only one Occupier named Michael Griffin is shown to have leased property in the Civil Parish of Newcastle. His lease was in the townland of Garryduff. The second page of Griffiths Valuation for Garryduff is attached to this reply, and shows that Michael leased four different properties at map references 17A, 17B, 17C, and 17D. He leased these properties from an Immediate Lessor named the Earl of Clonmel, who owned most of Garryduff.

Michael’s leaseholds are the first four entries at the top of the page for Garryduff. He leased three different parcels of land, and another section containing a house and land.

The first parcel of land at map reference 17A was for 1 Acre, 2 Roods, and 36 Perches of land.

At map reference 17B Micael leased 7 Acres and 37 Perches of land.

At map reference 17C, he leased 7 Acres and 27 Perches of land.

At map reference 17D, he leased a house along with 3 Acres and 2 Roods of land. The total valuation for his leases was 5 Pounds and 15 Shillings. He would have paid a percentage of this value toward the tax.

For more information about acres, roods, and perches, go to the lochista.com website link at:
https://lochista.com/understanding-acres-perches/

Back to Griffiths Valuation, you’ll see that the Occupier just after Michael Griffin is Thomas Griffin (Pat). The addition of the name Pat is what’s known as an Agnomen, Latin for “Other name.” What this means is that Pat was Thomas’s father. No agnomen is recorded for Michael Griffin.

Accompanying Griffiths Valuation is a Griffiths Valuation map, showing the locations where each person leased their property. The map is attached to this reply. I found map reference 17A, 17B, and 17C, where Michael Griffin leased three parcels of land. The one I was most interested in however, was map reference 17D, where Michael Griffin’s house was located. I didn’t find 17D on the map of Garryduff, unfortunately.

If you are going to Dublin before heading for Tipperary, you may be able to make an appointment with the former Valuation Office, now called Tailte Éireann. This office was established on 1 March of 2023, and is the result of a merger between the Property Registration Authority, the Valuation Office, and Ordnance Survey Ireland.

Tailte Éireann holds the Griffiths Valuation Maps, and if you have time you can stop by the Valuation Division of Tailte Éireann to look at the map for Garryduff, county Tipperary, to see if you can find Michael’s house at map reference 17D.

For more information go to the Tailte Éireann Genealogy link at:
https://www.valoff.ie/en/archive-research/genealogy/

The Tailte Éireann office advises booking an appointment before you go. See the following links:

https://www.valoff.ie/en/archive-research/book-a-public-office-appointm… and: https://valuationoffice.simplybook.it/v2/

The Irish words Tailte Éireann mean “Irish Lands” in English.

MICHAEL GRIFFIN’S DEATH RECORD

I found Michael’s death record at the irishgenealogy.ie website, showing in died in Knockperry, Newcastle on August 20, 1877 at the age of 71. At the time of death he had been a “Farmer.” He was also a “Widower.”
The cause of death was “Bronchitis 1 year.” The person who was present at the death and who reported the death to the registrar was John Griffin of Knockperry. John’s relationship to Michael is not recorded. The registrar, P.B. Stafford, recorded the death in the Clogheen Registration District on 2 September 1877. Michael’s death is number 397 in the register which you can access after following the prompts:
https://tinyurl.com/4rx57p8y

I didn’t find a death record for Michael’s wife Mary. Copies of original death records at the irishgenealogy.ie website are only available from 1871. Before 1871 only indexes of death are available, which give very little identifying information about a person. For example, you can access the death index for a Mary Griffin recorded in the Clogheen Registration District for 1865. She was 60 years old when she died: https://tinyurl.com/bde4r67s

This death index is only an example. It may or may not pertain to Michael’s wife Mary. The irishgenealogy.ie website plans to make full death record images available sometime in the future.

AN AMERICAN RECORD

Based on the information in previous replies, I accessed the Find A Grave entry for Michael Griffin, showing that he died in 1921 and is buried in Saint Mary’s Catholic Cemetery, Glasco, Cloud County, Kansas.

The question I had to ask myself is, why would Michael leave Chicago, Illinois and go to Kansas in 1870? The answer that immediately came to mind was, for land. In addition, you had stated in a previous reply that Michael was a “homesteader” in Kansas.

I went to the Bureau of Land Management, General Land Office Records website to see if a Michael Griffin had applied for a land patent in Cloud County, Kansas, and found that he did. In this case he filed a patent for 160 acres of land in Cloud County, though his town of residence is not recorded in the land patent. The date of the land patent is September 23, 1879.

The patent was filed at the land office in Concordia, Kansas.

Below is the index for Michael’s land patent:

Accession: KS0230__.431
Names: GRIFFIN, MICHAEL
Date: 9/23/1879
Doc #: 8038
State: KS
Meridian: 6th PM
Twp - Rng: 008S - 005W
Aliquots: SE¼
Sec. #: 32
County: Cloud
Total Acres: 160.00

Source: U.S. Department of the Interior, Bureau of Land Management, General Land Office Records
https://glorecords.blm.gov/
----

This land patent may refer to your mom’s grandfather Michael.

Attached to this reply is a copy of the original land patent for Michael Griffin. I’m not sure if you have this, but it would be a nice addition to your genealogy. These old documents look great matted and framed.

The land patent shows the signature of President Rutherford B. Hayes, but because so many people filed for land patents during this time period, the president usually had a secretary sign for him. In this case the secretary was Wm. H. Crook. The land patent also shows the signature of S.W. Clark, who was the Recorder of the General Land Office at the time.

In your last reply you had also mentioned that James Griffin had settled in Delphos, Kansas. Delphos is in Ottawa County, Kansas, and so I wanted to see if James also applied for a land patent around the same time his brother Michael did, only in Ottawa County, Kansas.

I found that he did, almost a year after Michael’s. James’s land patent is dated August 4, 1880, and was also for 160 acres. See the index below:

Accession: KS0250__.318
Names: GRIFFIN, JAMES
Date: 8/4/1880
Doc #: 8984
State: KS
Meridian: 6th PM
Twp - Rng: 009S - 005W
Aliquots: NE¼
Sec. #: 10
County: Ottawa
Total Acres: 160.00

Source: U.S. Department of the Interior, Bureau of Land Management, General Land Office Records
https://glorecords.blm.gov/
----

A copy of the original land patent for James Griffin is attached to this reply.

Before closing I’d like to mention that even though I may think the Griffith/Griffin baptism records seen earlier are for the brothers you are looking for, you and your mom may not think so after reviewing them. But that’s OK, as the research concerning the six Griffin brothers wasn’t a waste of time.

You are much more familiar with your Irish ancestry than I am. The process of elimination is all part of Irish genealogical research, and if you and your mom do not think these Griffins are in your direct, and collateral lines, you can then proceed and search for other information that may reveal the town, or towns, where Michael, James, William, and Edward had lived before they left Ireland, as well as tell you who their parents were.

Before you leave for Ireland are there any other people you’d like me to look for, or the locations of any towns you are interested in?

Thank you for the invite to dinner in Ireland Kate. You and your family have a couple jars of the Guinness to celebrate your being in Ireland.

Dave

SOURCES

Find My Past
Wikipedia
Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation and Map
Tailte Éireann
irishgenealogy.ie
Bureau of Land Management, General Land Office Records: https://glorecords.blm.gov/

Hi Dave!

Wow! I am speechless. Thank you so much for all of your help and time spent searching for our ancestors. This is truly a big gift! I, of course, am rushing to Orlando for our flight but I had to write you back. 

We will use the information, all of it, that you have found and continue searching when we are in Ireland. I will be able to access Ireland Reaching Out while I am traveling so I will check back with you occasionally. If I remember correctly, you have more information on Thomas Murray, correct. I know we are at a standstill with Mary Hart at the moment. There is some question as to whether or not Mary Hart was his first wife or possible an Ellen Lavonski. I'm not sure on that spelling. There seems to be a bit of a mystery there. 

I can't wait to make a connection between the parents you found Michael and Maria, to the other Griffin family. We will have to connect some dots. 

Ugh! I hate to rush and cut this short but I guess an international flight waits for no one! :) I will be in touch soon! 

You have really outdone yourself! 

THANK YOU! 

All the best, 
Kate

Hi Dave,

I hope my message finds you healthy and doing well! I can't believe that almost a year has gone by since we last spoke through this site. WOW! We got back just in time for me to start a new school year. It has been super busy but the time went so quickly. 

We had an amazing family trip to Ireland last summer. Our group of 13 people enjoyed absolutely everything. We had an age range of 12 all the way up to my mom at age 87. It was a wonderful experience. Four of us are headed back this summer to continue some family research. We did meet with one genealogist in Cobh and he had amazing knowledge about the Irish people and their history but I don't think he did much research ahead of time before our meeting so he was not too helpful in that regard. You...on the other hand...had so much amazing research for us. We are so appreciative of everything you did for us. There is never enough time to do all the research and find ancestors so that is why we are going back at the end of July this summer. 

I would enjoy reconnecting with you if you have any available time. 

All the best,

Kate

Hi Kate, 

I was glad to hear you and your family had a fantastic time in Ireland. There's always an adventure to be had almost around every corner. Your mom must have been thrilled.

Cobh is a great place to visit. A girl named Annie Moore left Cobh and was the first person to have been passed through at Ellis Island on January 1, 1892. I hope you had a chance to see the statue of her and her two younger brothers near the Cobh Heritage Centre.

You must be looking forward to your next trip in July.

Thank you for writing. It's hard to believe it has been almost a year since our last communication. If you have any questions about Ireland, please don't hesitate to ask.

With Best Wishes,

Dave

 

 

 

 

Hello Dave,

Hmmm...there are time stamps on these messages, and yes...it's 2:30 in the morning! I leave in one hour to drive my sister to the airport for a very early flight. I have been trying to connect more dots with family history and find myself getting sucked into the internet searches. Ha! 

My mom was so thrilled. She feels "home" when she is in Ireland. My siblings and I are looking into getting her an Irish Citizenship by Descent. I hope it works out for her. We did see the statue of the young Annie Moore. We really enjoyed the heritage centre. It's just impossible to take it all in. We drank a Guiness or two and saluted you for sure. My nieces and nephew explored a lake near the Knockmealdown Mountains that they researched based on stories we were all told as young children over the years. It's the story of a ghost named Petticoat Loose." Do you know of it? We have such great memories from our trip. :) 

As I read back through all of the messages, I remembered a gentleman by the name of Roger (thank you, Roger) mentioned the possibility of locating a volunteer for a meet and greet so I sent a message about trying to meet someone in the County Clare or County Tipperary area for when I am in Ireland again in August. I will keep my fingers crossed. 

As you know, you found wonderful information on the Griffins so we will continue that search when we explore on this upcoming trip. This trip will be my mom, my brother, my oldest sister, and me. 

I know our trip is so close but I thought I would see if you would have any interest or time to inquire about Thomas Murray. I think we started talking about him but probably ran out of time. I will share what I know which isn't much and if you can, great and if not, I completely understand. Thomas Murray would be my mom's maternal great grandfather. All we know is that he was born in County Clare in 1798. According to family information, he married a woman named Mary who died in Ireland before leaving for America with two children. We do not know Mary's last name. We have an obituary of one of his daughters, Julia Murray who was born in County Cork. We do know that Thomas Murray died September 25, 1868 at the age of 70 in Decatur, Illinois. Sadly, we don't know any more than that. The "Mary Hart" who you found information on before, we believe became his second wife but married in the US. We definitely have some conflicting information about their blended families that maybe we could talk about another time. 

As I end this message, it's much later than 2:30  and I need to get my sister to the airport , however, I would really like to know how to properly thank you for all of the time and effort you put into all of the research you did for my family. I will make a donation to IrelandXO because it's an amazing platform but I really want others to know how invaluable you are and how much my family appreciates you. Please let me know what would be the best way to show our gratitude. 

All the best, Dave! I hope the summer is treating you well. Hope to talk soon! 

Kate

 

Hi Dave,

I wanted to update you on a map from the Griffiths Valuation.  In some of your research above, you mentioned finding a plot of land that Michael Griffin (Griffith) would have had a house on in Garryduff. I reached out to the  Tailte Eireann and they were able to help me locate it on a map. We are very excited to try to find this location when we are in Ireland in August. 

 

Update: 7/15/24 We found this property and believe it or not it is the exact location we have visited twice now. In 2004, we visited our relative Johnny Griffin who grew up there and then again last summer we visited his half-brother, Paddy, who currently lives there. Very exciting! 

I hope all is well with you. Happy Summer! 
Kate

Hi Kate!

Great to see that you are returning to Ireland. You mention sending the form regarding meeting up with a volunteer in Co. Clare and Co. Tipperary. I assume in Tipperary, you are going back to Garryduff in Newcastle parish where you have visited family previously. Not sure we have a volunteer in that area.

Where is your interest in Co. Clare? We have a new Administrator so I want to be able to let him know where you are headed.

Roger

 

Hi Roger,

Thank you for reaching out. We are very excited about our return trip. We will visit Garryduff again. We are not certain where Thomas Murray born 1798 is from in County Clare yet. It would be so amazing to meet with a volunteer but I know that is not so easy if we don't know the area. I am trying to do everything possible research wise to figure this out before I leave on July 30th for my trip. We are also trying to trace his daughter, Julia Murray Holland who was born in County Cork in 1843. Her mother, who we think is Mary Hart, was also from County Cork.

I want to thank you for your support. I especially want to thank Dave Boylan for his time and outstanding research he has helped me with to locate ancestors. I know how much time and effort it takes to do the research and he just helped us so much. I will be sure and make a donation to IrelandXO but please let me know if there are others ways to show our appreciation. 

Again, thank you! 
Kate

Kate:

I was unable to find a baptismal record for Julia Murray with the parents names listed.

Without a location in Co. Clare, we can't have a volunteer available.

Roger

Hello Kate,

Many thanks for your follow-up replies and kind words. It’s very much appreciated. You and your family must be getting excited over your upcoming return trip to Ireland on July 30^th.

As you know, without the names of Thomas Murray’s father and mother, and without knowing what parish or townland in County Clare where he was born and baptized, it will be a challenge to learn about his early life before he left Ireland for the United States.

Do you know if Thomas had any siblings who came to the United States with him? The death records of Thomas’s siblings may possibly confirm who their parents were, and where they were born in County Clare, though there is also the possibility the death records will not give this information.

Also, have you obtained Julia Murray Holland’s death certificate, as this may possibly confirm the name of her mother, and where she was born in County Cork. More on this later.

Kate, what record or records have you found stating that Thomas Murray came from County Clare? The reason I ask is that if that information came from an online source, and not from a copy of an original document, the information for his County Clare birthplace may be accurate.

The same holds true for Julia Murray Holland. Do you have a copy of an original record showing that she was born in County Cork?

Below is an example of a birth record index I found online, at the FamilySearch website. It’s the birth record for a daughter of Martin Holland and Julia Murray Holland. The child’s first name is not recorded in the index, but the index states her mother Julia was born in “Dubline,” Ireland, which I take to be either Dublin City, or a town in County Dublin. The child was born on 8 August 1888. The place where the birth was recorded is Macon, Illinois. Decatur is the County Seat for Macon County:

Julia Murry Holland

Mentioned in the Record of Holland (Julia Murry Holland's Daughter)

Vital • Illinois Births and Christenings, 1824-1940

Name Holland

Sex Female

Race White

Father's Name Martin Holland

Father's Sex Male

Father's Age 45

Father's Birth Year (Estimated)    1843

Mother's Name Julia Murry Holland

Mother's Sex Female

Mother's Age 43

Mother's Birth Year (Estimated)   1845

Mother's Birthplace Dubline

Event Type Birth

Event Date 8 Aug 1888

Event Place Macon, Illinois, United States

"Illinois Births and Christenings, 1824-1940", , FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:H9TY-SS3Z : 13 February 2020), Julia Murry Holland in entry for Holland, 1888.

----

Through further research at FamilySearch I found that the name of this child was Agnes Loretta Holland, and that she died in Decatur, Macon County, on 19 October 1890.

Agnes Loretta Holland

Female

Birth: 8 Aug 1888

Decatur, Macon, Illinois

Death: 19 Oct 1890

Decatur, Macon, Illinois

Illinois, U.S., Deaths and Stillbirths Index, 1916-1947

----

The person who submitted this information to FamilySearch was Heather Walker. Do you know Heather?

If you obtain a copy of the original birth record for Agnes, you can see if the birthplace of her mother Julia actually states, “Dubline.” You may also want to obtain a copy of Agnes’s original 19 October 1899 death record.

Also, do you have a copy of Julia Murray Holland’s death record? There is the possibility her death record may confirm the maiden name of her mother and also record where Julia was born.

I found Julia’s death index at Ancestry.com, showing that she died in Decatur, Macon County, Illinois on 25 March 1944 at the age of 101. Her mother’s maiden name in the index is just recorded as “Murray.”

Indexes such as the one below do not always provide the complete information from the actual death record:

Name Julia Murray Holland

[Julia Murray Murray]

Birth Date abt 1843

Death Date 25 Mar 1944

Death Place Decatur, Macon, Illinois

Death Age 101

Gender Female

Father Name Thomas Murray

Mother Name Mary Murray

Spouse Name Martin Holland

Source Information

Ancestry.com. Illinois, U.S., Deaths and Stillbirths Index, 1916-1947 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2011.

Original data:

"Illinois Deaths and Stillbirths, 1916–1947." Index. FamilySearch, Salt Lake City, Utah, 2010. Index entries derived from digital copies of original records.

----

Birth, marriage, and death records can be ordered from the Macon County Clerk in Decatur. Birth and death records begin in 1877, and marriages in 1829, according to the Illinois Regional Archives Depository System (IRAD) at: https://www.ilsos.gov/departments/archives/IRAD/irad.pdf

 

Macon County Vital Records

Macon County Clerk

141 S. Main Street

Decatur, IL 62523

(217) 424-1305 

Individuals requesting records must send photocopy of their ID and include a self-addressed stamped envelope.

Record Cost                 

Birth   $11.00                                 

Death $13.00                                 

Marriage $11.00

----

Call first before obtaining any records, as costs for birth, marriage, and death records may have changed.

Concerning marriages, Heather Walker submitted an index to FamilySearch showing that Martin Holland and Julia Murray were married in Decatur on 17 January 1871:

Couple Event

Marriage

17 January 1871

Decatur, Macon, Illinois, United States

Couple

Martin Holland

Male

1843–1918

 

Julia Murray

Female

1848–1944

----

I never trust information I find online, but always see if I can locate a copy of the original source for the birth, marriage, and death, as this may save you from doing unproductive and time consuming research, leading to inaccurate results in the long run.

If you uncover any new information please let me know. If I don’t hear from you before you leave for Ireland on the 30^th of July, I hope you and your family have another unforgettable experience in the homeland of our ancestors.

With Best Wishes,

Dave

Hi Dave,

It was so great to hear from you. Thank you for the great questions. I had hoped to get my response sent to you yesterday and earlier than I am today but needed time to answer as clearly as possible although nothing is "clear" about the Murrays. Ha!

I completely understand the difficulty about finding anything about Thomas Murray because we don't know his parents names or that he was even from County Clare. We only have written paperwork, nothing official that Thomas is from County Clare or that Julia Murray is from County Cork. We have been searching County Cork for Thomas instead only because our family paperwork and Julia's obituary said she was from County Cork and Mary Hart who we "think" might be her mother was apparently from Bunmahon, County Waterford. So that is why we keep trying to find them in Co. Waterford or Co. Cork.

My mom found a family document that said Thomas had a brother, Dennis Murray. Dennis had a wife named Ellen and after he died, she married Thomas, his brother. I know we have talked about this before and it's so confusing but we are still trying to learn who the two wives were that Thomas was married to, one being Mary and the other being Ellen. Our family paperwork says Mary Hart and Ellen Levonskie (probably spelled other ways too.) They remain a mystery to us! 

To be honest, even though Thomas Murray's gravestone says he died in 1868 at age 70 years. I'm not even sure that is correct because on Ancestry and other family papers say he was born in 1820. I think my mom is convinced he was born in 1798 because his gravestone would indicate that. There is a 1860 US census record that says Thomas was 40 years old which would have put him born in 1820. So confusing! 

Dave, as for Julia Murray Holland's death certificate, I can only find two records that only state her name and date she died. I am having a difficult time finding it on Ancestry. I believe I looked somewhere else but am turning up nothing. 

The record you found on Agnes, is Julia Murray Holland's daughter who died as a child. I have not seen Dubline anywhere before as a place of birth for Julia Murray. That is very interesting. It could also be why I have a difficult time finding any Irish records for her.

You asked about a Heather Walker. I do not know her but I would be happy to contact her. You would be proud of me. I have reached out to contributors on Find a Grave as well as made calls to Archdioceses in Illinois and New York trying to track down these ancestors. One woman in Decatur went to the Calvary Cemetery and sent me pictures of the Murray and Griffin gravestones. You know what is so amazing? There is a gravestone for a William Griffin with the same birthdate as the William from the six brothers with the parents Michael Griffith and Maria Nugent that you so kindly found for us. That brother, William, settled in Decatur. There might be a good chance that is him. I will keep you posted on that. I did contact the Arch Dioceses in Springfield, Illinois and spoke to the archivist. He told me to search on Ancestry using the Sacramental records of the diocese in Springfield, Illinois to look for births, deaths, and marriages for the Murrays. I started with Julia today and had no luck finding her marriage certificate to Martin Holland but I will try again tomorrow. I appreciate all of the information you have found. I really don't think I know how to accurately search. I'm trying though. :) 

I just looked back up at the marriage information you have for Julia and Martin and interesting enough it says Julia's birth year is 1848. Her obituary says 1843. I know it's easy to mix up a 3 and an 8. However, I found a US census record that also said her birth year was 1848 and her immigration year was 1849 which puts her as an infant coming to America. That was also stated in her obituary.

I hope my answers are clear and not too confusing. It all gets so jumbled in my head. I appreciate you so much! 

Hopefully we get to chat some more before my trip. Hoping all is well. Kate

 

 

 

 

 

Attached Files

Hi Kate,

Many thanks for your reply and the additional information you provided about your ancestors. You are to be commended for all the comprehensive research you have done looking for your Irish ancestors.

When I was looking for more information about the Murray and Hart ancestors last night, I found a death record transcription for Martin Holland, only the transcription spells his last name as, “Halland.”

This record shows he was born in Ireland on 1 July 1843 and died in Decatur on 13 December 1918 at the age of 75. I am wondering if he died from the flu, as there was a world-wide flu epidemic at the time. He was buried on 16 December 1918. His occupation had been “Section Foreman,” which sounds like he was a railroad worker.

The death transcription also shows that his father was George W. Halland, who was born in Ireland. Martin’s mother was Anna Luca, also born in Ireland. Martin’s wife is recorded as Julia.

The transcription comes from Ancestry.com, but was obtained by Ancestry from a FamilySearch microfilm.

The Macon County clerk should have the full death record.

See the transcription below:

Martin Halland in the Illinois, U.S., Deaths and Stillbirths Index, 1916-1947

Illinois, U.S., Deaths and Stillbirths Index, 1916-1947

Name Martin Halland
Birth Date 1 Jul 1843
Birth Place Ireland
Death Date 13 Dec 1918
Death Place Decatur, Macon, Illinois
Burial Date 16 Dec 1918
Death Age 75
Occupation Section Foreman
Race White
Marital Status M
Gender Male
Father Name Geo. W. Halland
Father Birth Place Ireland
Mother Name Anna Lucus
Mother Birth Place Ireland
Spouse Name Julia
FHL Film Number 1544186

Source Information
Ancestry.com. Illinois, U.S., Deaths and Stillbirths Index, 1916-1947 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2011.

Original data:
"Illinois Deaths and Stillbirths, 1916–1947." Index. FamilySearch, Salt Lake City, Utah, 2010. Index entries derived from digital copies of original records.
____

The information that Martin’s father was George and that his mother was Anna Lucas, prompted me to look for Martin’s baptism at the Find My Past website, which links to a copy of the original baptisms held by the National Library of Ireland. Initially, I didn’t find Martins baptism, but did uncover the baptisms for seven of his siblings, all baptized in the St. Senan’s Catholic Church, County Clare. St. Senan’s was in the Civil Parish of Kilrush. It is in the Catholic Parish of Kilrush.

Two of the baptisms give the mother’s first name as Nancy. One baptism records the mother’s married name of Holland.

The first names, dates of baptism, and the spelling of the mother’s first and maiden names for these children are below:

Patt, 24 January 1835, Mother Nancy Lucas
Margret, 5 May 1836, Mother Nancy Lucas
John, 9 May 1838, Mother Anne Lucas
Bridget, 16 January 1843, Mother Nann Lucas
Mary, 10 August 1845, Mother Anne Lucas
Anne, ? August 1847, Mother Anne Luca
Michl, 28 April 1850 Mother Anne Holland
----

Three of the children, Mary, Anne, and Michael were born during the Great Irish Famine of 1845 to 1852.

You’ll notice there is a six year gap between the baptism of John in 1838 and the baptism of Mary in 1845. I suspect Martin would have been born and baptized between 1838 and 1845. His death transcription gives his date of birth as 1 July 1843. There may have also been other children born to George and Anna during this time period. More on this a little later.

The full baptism record for John Holland, from the National Library of Ireland, shows that he was born in the townland of Kilcarrol.

The full baptism record for Mary and Anne show they were born in the townland of Monmore.

The IreAtlas Townland Data Base spells the townland where John was born as, “Kilcarroll.” See: https://tinyurl.com/48fn5ays

The IreAtlas shows the modern spelling for Monmore is “Moanmore,” and also reveals there are Moanmore Lower, Moanmore North, Moanmore South, and Moanmore Upper: https://tinyurl.com/mrehpxhc

I suspected that Martin Holland’s baptism was recorded in the St Senan Catholic Parish, but that the baptism may have been too faded or damaged to read, or that his name was recorded erroneously by the parish priest.

This prompted me to look for the baptism of a child named Martin, whose father was George and whose mother’s maiden name was Lucas. I didn’t look for the baptism with the child or the father’s surname.

As luck would have it, I found the baptism record showing that Martin “Boland,” son of George Boland and Nancy Lucas was baptized in the St. Senan Catholic Parish on 1 November 1840. His place of birth was the townland of Ballynote. His godparents are Patt Lucas and Margt Bourke.

A copy of Martin’s original baptism record from the National Library of Ireland is attached.

Below is a revised list of the 8 Holland baptisms, which now includes the baptism of Martin:

Patt, 24 January 1835, Mother Nancy Lucas
Margret, 5 May 1836, Mother Nancy Lucas
John, 9 May 1838, Mother Anne Lucas
Martin, 1 November 1840, Mother Nancy Lucas
Bridget, 16 January 1843, Mother Nann Lucas
Mary, 10 August 1845, Mother Anne Lucas
Anne, ? August 1847, Mother Anne Luca
Michl, 28 April 1850 Mother Anne Holland
----

As you can see the baptisms were two to three years apart.

I next went to Google Maps to see how close the townlands of Moanmore, Kilcarroll, and Ballynote are from one another in County Clare.
The Google Map shows that Ballynote, traveling through Kilcarroll and Kilrush, is 10 miles south of Moanmore:
https://tinyurl.com/3xzyf8tu

Here is a Google Street View of the Rock Road in Ballynote: https://tinyurl.com/mtjp48m7

This is the townland where your Martin Holland was born, minus the new houses.

This next Google Map shows the locations of Manmore, Moanmore North, Moanmore South, Moanmore Upper, and Moanmore Lower. Also on the map is the location of the “Monmore” Catholic Church: https://tinyurl.com/y27au2s4

Next is a Google Street View of the Monmore Catholic Church. This church does not look old enough to predate the 1850s: https://tinyurl.com/munehrd6

Wikipedia mentions the two Catholic Churches in the Kilrush Catholic Parish. These are the Church of St. Senan, Toler Street, Kilrush, constructed in the 1839-1840 time period, and the Church of the Little St. Senan, Monmore, constructed in the 1895-1896 time period. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilrush_(parish)

This means that at least four five of the Holland children would have been baptized in St. Senan. Having been born in 1840, I’ not sure if the new church would have been opened when Martin was baptized on 1 November 1840.

To find out when the church opened I went to the Kilrush Parish website, which states the church was opened on 29 November 1840, which means Martin may have been baptized in an older church in Killrush that was deconsecrated after the new St. Senan’s was constructed.

See the Kilrush Parish website for more information and photos of St. Senan’s: https://www.kilrushparish.com/church/st-senans-church/

According to the National Library of Ireland, St. Senan’s baptisms are held from 1 August 1827, and marriages from 7 January 1829. See: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0808?locale=en

The oldest Holland child in the St. Senan baptism records is Patt. He was baptized on 24 January 1835. I thought there was a good chance that the marriage of his parents George Holland and Anne/Nancy Lucas would be recorded in the St. Senan marriage records, which go back to 1829.

I found the marriage transcription at Find My Past, which shows the couple were married in St. Senan’s on 11 February 1834. The transcription also shows that George’s father was Pat Holland and that Anne’s father was John Lucas. Unfortunately the names of the mothers were not recorded.

I’ve attached a copy of the original marriage record from the National Library of Ireland, which further shows the marriage took place in the “Kilrush Chapel,” and that the witnesses to the marriage were Pat Holland, and Michael and Joan Lucas.

The Kilrush Chapel would have been the older chapel where Martin and Anne were married. The new chapel may have been constructed on the site, or very near the site of the new St. Senan’s.

Next I accessed Griffiths valuation from the Ask About Ireland website to see if George Holland and his father Patrick were recorded, and to also see if Anne’s father John Lucas was recorded in Ballynote, or Kilcarroll, and also in one of the Moanamore townlands.

I had especially wanted to see if Holland’s were recorded in Griffiths Valuation living in Martin’s townland of birth, Ballynote. I didn’t find George Holland or John Lucas.

However, I did find that an Alice Lucas leased property in Ballynote West. She was probably related to Anne and her father John, though it’s impossible to tell if John, Anne and their family had lived in the house that Alice had leased from an Immediate Lessor named Col. C.M. Vandeleur.

Also found that a Michael Lucas leased property in Liscarrol from an Immediate Lessor named Simon O’Donnell.

Kate, I tried to find as much information about the Holland and Lucas families in the shortest period of time, as I know you will be leaving for Ireland in a few days. I’m not sure if you are interested in the Holland and Lucas lines. If you are, do you think you will have enough time set aside in your itinerary to visit the townlands of Ballynote, Liscarrol, and the Moanmores?

Once again Kate, if I don’t hear from you before you leave for Ireland, have a fantastic trip.

With Best Wishes

Dave

Hi Dave,

We confirmed our amazing discovery of William Griffin as the son of Michael Griffith (Griffin) and Maria Nugent. William would be Michael Griffin's brother. If you remember, they came over to America with either one or two other brothers. Michael is my mom's grandfather. William married Mary Bantner and had several children. They lived in Decatur, Illinois and we discovered them by letters that my mom found with an address in Decatur, Illinois. We found them in the US Census records and confirmed them at the address. William has the same birth/baptism as the William you found. We are continuing to search for William and Mary's children. WE HAVE YOU to thank for these discoveries. Without your time, effort, and amazing attention to the research, we never would have found them. I can not tell you enough how thankful we are for you. I honestly have some happy tears in my eyes thinking about your kindness. 

I hope all is well. Hoping we get to talk before I leave next Tuesday. If not, please know that I will be in touch once I return from my trip. 

All the best to you,

Kate :) 

Hi again, Dave! It happened to me again. I am just now seeing that you wrote an update of amazing information just above my last message. I wanted to be sure and let you know. I am so excited to read through what you found. You amaze me! My mom and siblings are currently on a Google Meet call and discussing our trip as I write this. I will read everything and respond tomorrow. 

THANK YOU! :) Kate

You're Welcome Kate, and many thanks for your kind words. Congratulations on your discoveries concerning William Griffin and his son Michael. 

Dave

Thanks Dave!

 

Roger

You're welcome Roger. Hope your summer is going well. Guinness and great Craic all around.

Sláinte, and Very Best Wishes.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I read through the amazing research on the Holland side. You make it sound so clear and your research seems flawless. Maybe as I continue to use the search sites, I too, will become as skilled as you. Ha! Thank you for your compliment in your message. 

I appreciate the research on that branch of the family very much. We will definitely continue our research over time to include as many family members and generations as possible. We will be near those townlands so I hope we can find time to visit those areas. This is all so wonderful. 

Once I return from the trip and get situated in my classroom, I will update you on any new findings. I hope my messages find you well and enjoying the beauty of summer.

All the best,

Kate :) 

 

Hello Roger,

Thank you for trying to help with the meet and greets. I will continue to use this site as a resource and to stay in touch with Dave. He is a lifesaver! We would not be were we are in our search without him! Anyone who he has helped with ancestry is so lucky to have him.

I truly appreciate everyone who has contributed to the site and for those who continue to share their stories. I am also trying to understand GEDMatch as  someone by the name of Chip reached out to me with his number so I hope to see if we are related. The support and information is greatly appreciated. 

Enjoy the rest of the summer. 

Kate