Trying to Find the Birth Place of Patrick Ryan (c1830-1900)

Hello Das,

According to a book by Brian Mitchell called, “A Guide To Irish Parish Registers,” the Catholic Parish in the Civil parish of Cordangan is called Lattin & Cullen.

Going to the National Library of Ireland website, you’ll see that baptisms and marriages for the Lattin & Cullen Catholic Parish are available starting with the year 1846, which would have been too late to have recorded Patrick’s baptism. See: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0259

There will not be a birth record for Patrick either, as births were not recorded by the government until 1864.

I looked for the Lattin & Cullen baptisms for any children of Thomas Ryan and Margaret Fogarty after the year 1845, but found none.

I then expanded the search for any children of a Thomas Ryan and Margaret Fogarty in both the northern and southern portions of Tipperary. These areas were called Tipperary North Ridings and Tipperary South Ridings respectively.

The search took place at the Find My Past (FMP) website, which is a subscription website with some free databases. One of these databases includes Catholic Parish registers for all 32 counties of Ireland. The majority of the registers are from the 19th century but some register go back to the 18th and even 17th centuries, while some extend into the 20th century.

At FMP I found the baptism transcription for a Margaret Ryan, who was baptized in the Moycarkey Catholic Parish in April of 1832. Her parents are Thomas Ryan and Margaret Fogarty. See the FMP transcription at the following link after you establish a free account with FMP: https://is.gd/oTJINm

The Catholic Parish of Moycarkey was in the Civil Parish of Moycarkey, according to Brian Mitchell’s book.

The FMP website also shows the baptism of a Mary Ryan in the Moycarkey Catholic Parish on 12 July 1810. Her parents are Thomas Ryan and Margaret Fogarty. See the transcription at: https://is.gd/lVzYxC

The National Library of Ireland website shows the Moycarkey baptism go back to 13 October 1793. Marriages are extent from 6 October 1793: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0248

There is the possibility that Mary and Margaret were your Patrick’s sisters. Do you have any records showing that Patrick had sisters named Mary or Margaret who came to Australia?

I next found that a Thomas Ryan had leased property in the townland of Pouldine, Civil Parish of Moycarky. This information comes from an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation.

Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for the Moycarky Civil Parish and surrounding parishes was completed by the year 1850.

Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent on Gale Day for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the askaboutireland website link at:
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

Griffiths Valuation for the townland of Pouldine is attached to this reply. The entry for Thomas Ryan is at Number 11, and shows that he leased over 13 acres of land, an office, and a house from an Immediate Lessor named Miss Emma Stannix. As you can see Emma Stannix is the only Immediate Lessor in Pouldine, which basically means, she owned the town.

Thomas’s land was valued at 6 Pounds and 5 Shillings, while his office and house were valued at 11 Shillings. The total value for Thomas’s lease was 6 Pounds and 16 shillings. He would have paid a percentage of this value toward the tax.

An ”office” in a Griffiths valuation record could refer to any type of outbuilding, such as a barn, stable, blacksmith shop, piggery, etc.

At Number 9 in Poudine, you’ll see that a William Fogarty leased a house and over 5 acres of land from Miss Emma Stannix. The land was valued at 2 Pounds, 4 Shillings. The house was valued at 14 Shillings for a total value of 2 Pounds and 18 Shillings.

At Number 4 in Pouldine you’ll see that a James Ryan had leased a house and land from Miss Emma Stannix.

There is the possibility that your Patrick Ryan and his family came from Pouldine, in the Civil Parish of Moycarky/Moycarkey, which was in the North Ridings of Tipperary. See the IreAtlas Townland Data Base entry at: https://is.gd/63VCbf

A Google Map shows that Pouldine is about 4 miles south of Thurles, Tipperary: https://is.gd/KzZKU9

For a Google Street View of Pouldine, see: https://is.gd/Bx5asr

With Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan

ATTACHMENT:
Pouldine in Griffiths Valuation

SOURCES:
Book: A Guide To Irish Parish Registers, by Brian Mitchell
National Library of Ireland
Find My Past (FMP)
Ask About Ireland/Griffiths Valuation
Google Map
Google Street View

Hi,
1851 in Griffiths Valuation  is Thomas Ryan in a townland called Lisnagaul, Cordangan.

Griffith's Valuation (askaboutireland.ie)

The Patrick Ryan on the Elizabeth.....his parents were Matthew and Bridget.

RYAN Patrick 1850 19 Cordangan Matthew / bridget Mother at Cordingan None . R.C. Ship = Elizabeth

Margot

Thanks heaps Dave and Margot for your research and assistance.  Excellent investigative work for which I'm most appreciative.

I intend to study your responses more closely but I think the Morcarkey Parish is more promising than the Cordangan Parish. 

May I please ask Margot, though, the source of her information that the parents of the Patrick Ryan on the 'Elizabeth' were Matthew and Bridget?  That's important so that I can categorically rule him out.  

I find pretty compelling the steps Dave took to find in FindmyPast the baptisms of Margaret and Mary Ryan to parents Thomas Ryan and Margaret Fogarty and, from that, the Moycarkey Catholic Parish and, from that, the townland of Pouldine, Morcarkey Parish  in the Griffith's Valuation.

With that trail, why would one need to look in Griffith's Valuation for tenements in townlands in Cordangan - which is linked to the 'Elizabeth' passenger Patrick Ryan with the wrong parents?

However, I am particularly keen to get Margot's source of information about Matthew and Bridget being the parents of the Patrick Ryan in the passenger list.

Thanks again to both of you.

Cheers and best wishes

Daryl

You're welcome Daryl, and many thanks for your reply.

Dave

Hi Daryl,
Some years ago I saw a list 1828 to 1865 records of people going to Australia. It was on my old PC.
TIPPEM (rootsweb.com)
The record you have of the ship Elizabeth, if you look in your TROVE site you will find the Book on entry to Australia, this has more information. Make sure you read both pages.
I cannot get into TROVE now.
Margot